Clutch pedal out but car wont move

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:10 am

Hello everyone, I seem to have run into a wall with this clutch problem I've been having and hope someone can shine some light on it.
(This will be a somewhat lengthy post)

But first, a bit of history about the car:

It is a 1987 Corolla GT-S (RWD) and had been running well when purchased 5 years back. Had the transmission rebuilt the next year due to the 2nd gear synchro failing and I also had them replace the clutch while they were down there with an Exedy aftermarket OEM. But, unbeknownst to me ( I was young and stupid ) the engine had a very slight knock and by year 3 it had spun some rod bearings. Retiring it to my garage, I then spent the next 2 years searching for a replacement motor. I finally found one in a donor '88 MR2 and promptly installed it. The motor runs great, it idles just a hair past 850 RPM and compression checks out across all 4 cylinders. But when I went to put it into gear, I did not feel my car move...at all.

I've done all the troubleshooting I could with the trans and clutch still inside the car.
-Letting the clutch out in gear does nothing
-I can shift from or to any gear with no grinding or clutch depressed when engine running
-There is no noise when i shift into gear except for that of the shift linkage selecting that gear
-I've checked the hydraulics, no leaks anywhere and just to be safe I replaced the Master and Slave Cylinders with new AISIN parts.

It all sounded like a bad clutch or release bearing. So I then removed the Transmission and clutch, but I did not find anything out of place. All the pieces are there and none of them look too far worn or damaged in any way. The Gear Linkage seems to be working well, the clutch disc has plenty material left, the pressure plate doesn't have any missing or damaged fingers,the flywheel looks just good (though it may need to be resurfaced, it too has plenty of meat on it) the clutch fork moves as it should, the release bearing and hub slides without binding and the splines on the input shaft doesn't show any sign of wear.

I'm stumped, the car should be moving, but i's not.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


totta crolla
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 am
Location: Oxford U.K

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby totta crolla » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:51 am

Very odd indeed.
You may have missed the pilot bearing that sits in the end of the crankshaft on an AE86, the MR2's don't have this bearing. It is there to support the gearbox input shaft.
I doubt it would be the cause of your particular problem unless the input shaft needle bearings are particularly worn.
Are the clutch plate spline correct and did the pressure plate clamp the friction disc correctly ?
Does the propshaft turn with the car in gear and the rear wheels off of the ground ? This should ideally be the next test.
Wrong release bearing or incorrectly installed release bearing ?
How does the clutch pedal feel ?
It sounds as if the clutch is being permanently pressurised, have you adjusted the pedal ?
Last edited by totta crolla on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

davew7
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:34 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby davew7 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:26 am

Verify that the clutch plate disc is installed with the correct face against the flywheel. If installed 180 [flipped] the plate will not contact the flywheel. Dave W

User avatar
CloudStrife
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby CloudStrife » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:41 am

I say the first two responses are your best shot. You obviously have an issue in between your gear shift selection, and the input into the engine via the transmission.

You also should get under the car (with someone else depressing the clutch) and verify that there is movement in the fork, engaging the clutch when the pedal is manipulated. You can also set a camera down there (phone) if you don't have another.

But I bet the two previous replies are your problem. Good luck!

Oh yeah, and make sure you properly bleed and refill the clutch system. It took me like 3 hours by myself on the Miata. If you bench bleed the MC, it helps greatly.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


allencr
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:59 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby allencr » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:19 am

Driveshaft in place? Missing clutch disk?
This sounds pretty much impossible to happen otherwise, at least not with out a lotta noise from a clutch disk that's separated from its hub.
I'm clueless.
Good luck.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:51 am

totta crolla wrote:Very odd indeed.
You may have missed the pilot bearing that sits in the end of the crankshaft on an AE86, the MR2's don't have this bearing. It is there to support the gearbox input shaft.
I doubt it would be the cause of your particular problem unless the input shaft needle bearings are particularly worn.
Are the clutch plate spline correct and did the pressure plate clamp the friction disc correctly ?
Does the propshaft turn with the car in gear and the rear wheels off of the ground ? This should ideally be the next test.
Wrong release bearing or incorrectly installed release bearing ?
How does the clutch pedal feel ?
It sounds as if the clutch is be permanently pressurised, have you adjusted the pedal ?


I installed a new pilot bearing when I did the swap and it sits as the BGB says it should. The clutch splines fit like a glove and the pressure plate is holding the clutch in place very nicely. Did not check if the propshaft was moving or not, will have to do that check once i get everything back together. The car drove fine before the engine went and all the clutch components on there are from the corolla, the release bearing spins freely on the hub and does not make any noise when spun, so there shouldn't really be an issue. The clutch pedal feels as it should, it isn't spongy, there isn't excessive play, but I will go check and adjust it when I re-install. I've bleed the system at least 3 time if not more, there wasn't any air coming out before i took the trans off.

Thanks for the insight, I'll keep digging around the trans, maybe i missed something.

Perhaps its already fixed, maybe its just one of those things that might fix itself after you re-install it the second time....( probably not )

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:54 am

davew7 wrote:Verify that the clutch plate disc is installed with the correct face against the flywheel. If installed 180 [flipped] the plate will not contact the flywheel. Dave W


I believe it is, the flat side facing the flywheel right? When bolted up, the clutch assembly moves with the flywheel.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:57 am

allencr wrote:Driveshaft in place? Missing clutch disk?
This sounds pretty much impossible to happen otherwise, at least not with out a lotta noise from a clutch disk that's separated from its hub.
I'm clueless.
Good luck.


Driveshaft is present and accounted for and the clutch disk was right where i installed it when i did the swap. I agree with you, this shouldn't be happening, not without quite a bit of noise.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:01 am

CloudStrife wrote:I say the first two responses are your best shot. You obviously have an issue in between your gear shift selection, and the input into the engine via the transmission.

You also should get under the car (with someone else depressing the clutch) and verify that there is movement in the fork, engaging the clutch when the pedal is manipulated. You can also set a camera down there (phone) if you don't have another.

But I bet the two previous replies are your problem. Good luck!

Oh yeah, and make sure you properly bleed and refill the clutch system. It took me like 3 hours by myself on the Miata. If you bench bleed the MC, it helps greatly.


I did see the clutch fork move and it operates as it should, unless there is a spec for how far it should move and how much space should be left between the fork and slave cylinder when i let off the clutch....is there?

also, 3 hours to bleed the clutch system? Kind of makes me question how many more times i would need to bleed mine.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:11 am


User avatar
CloudStrife
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby CloudStrife » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:34 am

Don't worry about tolerances or clearance, just make sure that when you actuate the pedal that the fork is doing it's job. Basically just making sure it moves (which it sounds like it does).

Yeah, that was only for me, but It took me forever to bleed the clutch system properly. It took me like 15-20 minutes on the Tacoma so it was very odd.

If you don't see any bubbles though, you should be good to go.

I mention these two things because they go hand in hand.
Here is the Miata with air in the system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S0abVan2xQ
You can see and hear that the clutch fork is not actuated because the slave cylinder can't push outward due to air in the system.

But like I said, if it's moving then you should be good to go..

User avatar
CloudStrife
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby CloudStrife » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:36 am

By the way, do you have a clutch switch that was working prior to the install?

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby jondee86 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:43 pm

If the clutch plate is clamped to the flywheel, the gearbox input shaft will be turning
when the engine is running. If the input shaft is turning it will not be possible to move
the gearlever out of neutral without a lot of ugly noises.

If the clutch plate is not clamped to the flywheel when the engine is running, then the
gearbox input shaft will not be turning, and you can move the gearlever anyway you want
without noise.

So the conclusion to be drawn is that the pressure plate is not clamping the clutch plate
to the flywheel. So how might this happen ?? If the clutch assembly is installed correctly,
there is only one possibility that I can think of... the throwout bearing is not retracting
far enough to allow the clutch to engage. In this case the throwout bearing will be in contact
with the fingers on the pressure plate at all times and spinning while the engine is running.

Clutch pedal feel would be pretty much normal as the pressure plate is being activated
but not engaging when the pedal is released. You need to check if is there is any freeplay
in the clutch fork or if it is being pressed hard against the pressure plate at all times.

Cheers... jondee96
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

aaronlee133
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:17 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby aaronlee133 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:07 am

I think Jondee nailed it. There's really no way you can shift without grinding unless the input shaft wasn't spinning, which would then mean the clutch disc is not fully engaged, which points to the release bearing constantly on the pressure plate. 2 questions - are you using the 'right' throw out bearing for your clutch (as these do vary by make) and 2) you may need to unscrew to loosen back the clutch pedal. If your clutch pedal is over adjusted it won't fully disengage as oil in the slave cylinder only flows back in the clutch master at a certain release point and hence that may be causing your hydraulics to always be slightly engaged if that makes sense.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:40 pm

jondee86 wrote:If the clutch plate is clamped to the flywheel, the gearbox input shaft will be turning
when the engine is running. If the input shaft is turning it will not be possible to move
the gearlever out of neutral without a lot of ugly noises.

If the clutch plate is not clamped to the flywheel when the engine is running, then the
gearbox input shaft will not be turning, and you can move the gearlever anyway you want
without noise.

So the conclusion to be drawn is that the pressure plate is not clamping the clutch plate
to the flywheel. So how might this happen ?? If the clutch assembly is installed correctly,
there is only one possibility that I can think of... the throwout bearing is not retracting
far enough to allow the clutch to engage. In this case the throwout bearing will be in contact
with the fingers on the pressure plate at all times and spinning while the engine is running.

Clutch pedal feel would be pretty much normal as the pressure plate is being activated
but not engaging when the pedal is released. You need to check if is there is any freeplay
in the clutch fork or if it is being pressed hard against the pressure plate at all times.

Cheers... jondee96



That is a very knowledgeable reply johndee, very logical as well and most likely the answer to my clutch problem. I will make sure to double check as best I can when I re-install everything this weekend and if everything goes well, I can finally drive my ae86 after a very long two years of waiting. Thanks to everyone for their help and I will keep you all posted.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:12 pm

Well, more bad news unfortunately. I went to look over all the parts before installation and I found that one of the prongs on the clip that sits between the clutch fork and pivot ball had broken off....

Probably not a big deal, but I'd like to do the job right.

https://i.imgur.com/uXyQXgJ.jpg

Just ordered the parts and hopefully they'll be in later this week.

allencr
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:59 pm

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby allencr » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:33 pm

When you unbolt the trans from the engine, does it seem to push itself away from the block & open up the gap as you're loosening the last bolt, Like it is spring loaded?

IIRC, someone once had a thingy that the release/throwout bearing is pressed onto that was too big/long & caused similar problem. off of something else that used another version of the T50 trans, an 80-83 Corolla or something.

That clip on the fork does nothing really, just to hold it in position for assembly.
Still clueless.
Good luck.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:17 pm

allencr wrote:When you unbolt the trans from the engine, does it seem to push itself away from the block & open up the gap as you're loosening the last bolt, Like it is spring loaded?

IIRC, someone once had a thingy that the release/throwout bearing is pressed onto that was too big/long & caused similar problem. off of something else that used another version of the T50 trans, an 80-83 Corolla or something.

That clip on the fork does nothing really, just to hold it in position for assembly.
Still clueless.
Good luck.


no,there was not a gap either before or after i removed that last bolt. If only it were that simple, but come this weekend i'll know for sure. Thanks for your reply, I know that the broken clip might not do much if anything, but I would prefer it not be broken :p and I just picked up the new Clutch fork today, my dealer had to order it from out of state somewhere. Just glad they could find one, it's been getting harder and harder to find parts.

5280_GTS
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: The Mile High City

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby 5280_GTS » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:50 pm

UPDATE:

The 86 is alive!! It runs. It drives. When I put it into gear it moves as it should. I honestly don't know what was the root cause. I didn't do anything different this time around as far as installation of the clutch goes, besides the new clutch and clutch fork. I can't wait to get it out there on the open roads.

Thank you, everyone, for your input

notnilc20
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Memphis

Re: Clutch pedal out but car wont move

Postby notnilc20 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:41 pm

5280_GTS wrote:UPDATE:

The 86 is alive!! It runs. It drives. When I put it into gear it moves as it should. I honestly don't know what was the root cause. I didn't do anything different this time around as far as installation of the clutch goes, besides the new clutch and clutch fork. I can't wait to get it out there on the open roads.

Thank you, everyone, for your input


CONGRATS! What a relief you must feel.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.



Return to “TECH: Corolla AE86”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests