Restoring AE86 w/ 4AGE 16v + HKS ITB + Haltech E6X

[Deuce Cam]

Holy bent tension rod!

[aceforever]

So I remeasured the camber, -6.5 instead of -7 on passenger side.

I also found someone mentioning this:

Tire size: 195/60-14 on stock alloy rims. (23.2" diameter)

From the ground to the top of the wheel well:

Front: 61cm (24")
Rear: 61cm (24")

When I measured from the ground to the top of my wheel well, I got ~23.5" on driver side. And ~23.25" on the passenger side. So I'm ~inch lower than stock.

I did see somewhere in old Club4AG archive forums that 2" or lower is when you need RCA.

[aceforever]

I use this soldering gun:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_97541-273-8200P ... 1368011056

You can also get electrical solder and heat shrink from there as well. Extra tips can be found at your local radioshack and should be switched when the tip degrades and doesn't perform as expected.

Scotch super 33+ electrical tape is always my go to in those instances where heat shrink isn't or can't be used, and then finally, finish everything off with wire loom and no one will question your connections again. If you want, like I said before, I can make a quick video on how I solder and what to check once you're complete!

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll have to bug you sometime when I'm done with the suspension stuff and ready to work on the wiring once more.

[aceforever]

Trying to understand what RCAs in general do. As far as I can tell, it lowers the lower control arm down more at the wheel for less bump steer. At lower ride heights and more negative camber, the stock dimensions for the strut causes the LCA to be a bit pointing up away from the cross member.



This is on a double wishbone car but I'm assuming the same principle applies.



Looking at my car. It looks like I have plenty of downward angle, way more than the size of the NCRCA. So if I deleted the NCRCA, I should still be around parallel to the floor if I keep the same ride height.

[jondee86]

It is generally accepted that 10mm of movement at either the top or the bottom of
the strut equals one degree of camber. So it might be a good idea to set the camber
plates the same either side at somewhere around the middle of their range of movement.
Then change the setting of the NCRA's to the lower offset set of holes. Find somewhere
that looks to be truly level, and measure to see what you have on either side.

The previous owner may well have installed the NCRA's to get a wider track at the front
of the car, or to get the right stance. You can figure out if you need them or not after
you know how much negative camber you have when in the middle of the adjustment...
and compare that to your target figure.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Previous owner was setting the car up to be a drift car. 10kg/mm front springs and 8kg/mm rear springs is a tad overkill for streets. My bottom can attest to that. I was reading 6k front and 4.3k rear is a well known mild setup? Saw a few posts about that. (Deuce Cam can probably provide more insight here too).

My goal is to have a nice car to drive on the back roads. And a car where I can learn how to drive better. I don't need crazy power nor track car level equipment.

From what I've read, if you don't need the extra camber for opposite lock traction, it's better to go less camber. And the tires would wear better too. Something around -1 to -2. So that's what I'm shooting for. I don't think I'll be able to get that with the NCRCA.

It is generally accepted that 10mm of movement at either the top or the bottom of
the strut equals one degree of camber. So it might be a good idea to set the camber
plates the same either side at somewhere around the middle of their range of movement.

Good point. I'll start matching the two sides slowly and see where I'm at.

[jondee86]

Yes... I think 1.5 deg negative camber is a decent target for a road car. I have
some LCA's that are 10mm longer than the stock AE86 arms, and I will be swapping
them in soon. Hopefully that will give me around 1.5 deg.

10/8kg/mm is madness for backroads Even 6/4.3kg/mm will be pretty
"lively" on broken surfaces, but good on smooth surfaces. If I ever find any decent
springs in the 5/4kg/mm combo (or close) I'd like to give that a try. It might be
worth losing a bit of comfort to gain a more control when pressing hard.

Some AE86 specific comment here...
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to ... -gts-ae86/

Cheers... jondee86

[Deuce Cam]

I have a feeling you won't be able to reach your camber goal with nrca. Check out the blurb on the t3 units (although they might be slightly different it's the same basic principle): https://technotoytuning.com/toyota/ae86 ... 86-corolla . Fwiw I was on espelir springs (almost 2" drop) with 2.5* caster (fixed manual steer strut tops) and my camber was 1.8*. If I had t3 nrca that would have added 2.8* to a total of 4.6*. Since you have camber plates you could dial back some of the negative camber, but only so much. As jondee86 mentioned 10 mm of adjustment is around 1*. (Fixed strut tops are centered fyi.) With camber plates you could maybe adjust them outward 10 mm, or even 20 mm if you're lucky, for a 1-2* correction.

You could always try removing them to check the change in camber, and also see if the suspension acts different because of the changed roll center. The toe might need to be adjusted after, but I could be wrong.

I agree with jondee86 on the spring suggestions. If you don't plan on hitting the track I would even go lower than 5/4k. Fwiw I've had 4.5/4k on the street and still felt it was harsh. However, aspects such as: matching the shock valving to the spring, correct stroke height, having springs that aren't preloaded (and using rubber suspension bushings) goes a long way to make the ride less jarring.

AE86 specific linear springs with reasonable rates are almost non existent now. (IMO low rate progressive drop springs feel weird at the limit.) Good thing diy front/rear coilovers are well documented and parts are readily available. Having custom replacement springs made is also an option, although not cheap. Last I checked AJPS was doing customer spec'd full sets for $400 USD shipped, but that was almost 1.5 years ago...

[jondee86]

Fwiw I was on espelir springs (almost 2" drop) with 2.5* caster (fixed manual steer
strut tops) and my camber was 1.8*.

Ahhh.... interesting that I have the Espelir springs in my car now, but have not had
the camber checked. I'll have to do that, because I was thinking that I only had around
0.5 deg and was going to put the longer LCA's in to get 1.5 deg.

Incidentally, I tracked a totally stock AE86 with Koni lowering springs, that gave about
a 1-1/2" drop. That car never had RCA's and even when pushed to the limit on the track
or on the road, bump steer was never a major concern. Sure the car would give a little
wiggle if I hit a bump while cornering hard, but that just added to the fun

Cheers... jondee86

[Deuce Cam]

IIRC oem camber is around 0.5* at stock ride height.

I had to dig out the printout for the alignment when I had the espelirs. Some of the figures were written in (including camber) so I assume there was a problem with their printer. Anyway, considering that it's possible the listed figures aren't correct. However, before the espelirs I had camber plates set at 1.3* camber, and to the eye the camber angle was less than the espelir setup that came after.

Personally I don't think rca's are needed unless the car is lowered over 2". I tried to fit them when I had megan springs and the espelirs (basically the same drop with both). They were almost impossible to install, even with the tension rod disconnected and the lca x-member bolt bolt loose. There's no room for them to fit. To make it fit one has to compress the strut by jacking up on the rotor or hub which is dangerous because the bottom of the strut isn't connected to anything - NOT RECOMMENDED! RCA's are really meant for those with coilover converted shortened struts, or people using really short stock replacement springs like trd or swift.

[oldeskewltoy]

OEM camber: 15' (minutes) + or - 45' minutes... so almost vertical, favoring a tiny bit positive camber. Caster w/PS - 3 degrees 40 minutes, w/o PS - 2 degrees 45 minutes (+ or - 45 minutes for inspection, + or - 30 minutes for adjusting)


Body height should be measured from LCA bolt in front, and bolt for body mount end of lower trailing arm. Front should be about 2mm shorter then rear. Stock GTS ride height should be 229mm front and 231 rear

[Deuce Cam]

Interesting. I looked at the service manual and didn't understand the 'minutes' nonsense. Is the 'minute' figure basically the degree/angle in hundredths?

I'm at stock ride height, and visually there clearly appears to be negative camber although I haven't measure it. I imagine it varies from car to car, and also depending on the setup. I also drive hard on twisty mountain back roads regularly and don't get were on the outer edge of my tires, which is usually an indication of positive camber (or not enough negative camber). I dug out 2 old alignment printouts that were from different shops. They each had slightly different ranges for camber, but taking the farthest ends of the spectrum from both the figures were something like: -.60* to +1.00*... not very precise haha.

[jondee86]

I looked at the service manual and didn't understand the 'minutes' nonsense.

Sixty minutes to one degree and sixty seconds to one minute.



Old school angle measurements... hark back to the glory days of the British Empire...
ships chromometers and brass sextants... hundredweights and ha'pennies

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks for the tips jondee86 & Deuce Cam! I'm really enjoying these discussions. Perhaps I shall go with 5k/4k. I'm not at all familiar with these spring rates so I'll trust your judgement before I can dig into it further. I'll definitely think about it more before purchasing a particular spring rate.

Also thanks for your knowledge on OEM specs oldskewltoy. So just to clarify, I should measure from LCA bolt to ground for front ride height?

I'm currently waiting for an allen key socket so I can unbolt the other NCRCA easier. Most of the time was spent unbolting these. And I only had a L shaped allen key. It was so tedious to unbolt. They should be coming tomorrow.

Meanwhile, to keep myself busy, I was thinking of ways to refresh the throttle return springs. Perhaps that'll help lower the idle. I believe the springs don't have enough strength to keep the throttle plates closed after they've been opened. Since without touching the throttle, and starting up and letting the engine warm up it stays around 1000rpm indicated (accounting for the worn tachometer, is closer to 800rpm). That seems more acceptable.

After searching for a while both online and in stores, I couldn't find any springs of the right length. But I did manage to find some with the right diameter and looks thicker than the springs already on the throttle bodies.



I picked one with a little more spring rate than the current ones. And cut it to length.


Bending them was finicky since I kept on losing the spring.


Here's a close up of the finished product. The new one seem a bit longer. I could shorten them later on.


2nd one took about the same amount of time to make. Also, looks like the original springs weren't the same length. Odd.


Here it is on the throttle body.

[oldeskewltoy]

Also thanks for your knowledge on OEM specs oldskewltoy. So just to clarify, I should measure from LCA bolt to ground for front ride height?

yep.....

I've not been following for all 29 pages.... I ASSUME you have the FSM[s]? In the chassis manual on page FA3 it shows the specs and where to measure.

If you do not have these manuals... go get them... some of the specs may be different - depending on trim and performance levels, BUT basic info for everything is in there.

Chassis manual is 100 megs, engine manual is 94 megs, wiring manuals about 5 megs - http://www.aeu86.org/technical/ae86-manuals/

[aceforever]

I've not been following for all 29 pages.... I ASSUME you have the FSM[s]? In the chassis manual on page FA3 it shows the specs and where to measure.

Thanks for pointing that out! To come to think about it, I should have known that the FSM would have this information. I'll try to refer to the manuals more.

[aceforever]

Yesterday I tested the new throttle return springs.

They work way better than the ones that were on there. The throttle plates are closed so much that the car cannot start unless I unplug the idle air intake.

I noticed cold start rpm with the idle air filter unplugged at 1000rpm. After warming up, I see 1600-1700rpm.

With the idle air plugged after a few minutes idle dropped to 800rpm. After warming up I see around 1000 or so.

My throttle pump settings are way off for this setup when using the idle air intake. Goes super lean then very rich after a few seconds. Not like the quick lean/rich like before. (could this be due to that I'm using air intake and vacuum sensing in one distributed vacuum box? I'll play with the pump settings again to see if that helps)

Car was running a bit rich more rich at first with 12 AFR. I'm guessing because there's less air than before, thus requiring less fuel. I tweaked the fuel map a bit to compensate.

[jondee86]

I'm not sure where we got to with this...



But to recap, for the thermostatic idle-up valve to do its job, it needs to have
engine cooling (warming) water plumbed to it from the radiator system. The idea
being that as the water gets warmer the valve gradually closes and reduces the
amount of extra air being supplied to the engine. The air side of the valve needs
to be plumbed into intake manifold after the throttle plates, ideally by way of
individual hoses to each intake runner.

From what you say above, it seems that the "vacuum box" is simply acting as
a fixed orifice, which results in your idle rising as the engine warms up. That is
how an engine responds if it does not have an idle air control system.

BTW... good work with the springs. Maybe that was all it needed to get your
idle down to a reasonable level.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thank you for the encouragement!

Do you think 1000rpm idle when warmed up is kind of high? I see in the MR2 4age manual it says standard is 800rpm

I think we were trying to adjust the thermostatic idle-up valve last time. There's a 1/4 inch adjuster that I played with before. I thought it adjusted how much air to pull in, however I now think it's actually the coolant block off. Currently it is very stuck. We decided to just plug up the ISCV at the time since the ITBs were leaking air since it was the quickest thing to do then.

I'm planning to go to the junkyard to look for a rotary Bosch ISV as it is quite common in a bunch of cars. I assume I just have to circulate the coolant lines to essentially delete the thermostatic valve.

My earlier comment about the vacuum box, I was referring to the vacuum distribution box. The box that averages the vacuum for signalling and brake booster vacuum. Earlier you mentioned that perhaps the MAP signal would be affected by the addition of idle air entering the box as well.

I did notice my indicated vacuum is much lower now with the ISCV unblocked, around -41kpa instead of -50kpa I saw on a previous day. I'll test it once more next time.

[jondee86]

Underneath the throttle bodies you should have something like this...



On the lower set you can see two rubber hoses on the RH end. These would
normally connect to the thermostatic valve on a stock 4AGE. If you are not
using the thermostatic valve, you can just use one of the hoses to loop the
two ends together.

At the moment your idle-up system is just constantly bleeding air into the
intakes. This will raise your idle and reduce the engine vacuum. Without an
active ISCV you have to adjust the amount of bleed air until you reach an
acceptable compromise between cold and hot idle. Cold idle has to be high
enough to keep the engine running after a cold start, and hot idle has to be
low enough to let you drive slowly in city traffic.

Stock idle is 850 rpm (anywhere between 800 and 900 will work), and without
an ISCV hot idle will be around 1000-1100 rpm.

If you have a vacuum collector for the booster and MAP sensor, that will not
affect the idle unless the booster is leaking and constantly letting air into
the manifold. You can check by disconnecting the booster hose and blocking
the inlet to see if it changes either idle speed or the vacuum reading.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

If you are not
using the thermostatic valve, you can just use one of the hoses to loop the
two ends together.

Thanks for confirming this. I noticed that's how the thermostatic valve was getting heated up coolant. I'll perform the changes once I find an electronic ISCV.

Thanks for the stock rpm numbers. It's very helpful to determine if my setup is out of adjustment.

Ah, so they are called vacuum collector! The reason I bring up my vacuum collector is that the thermostatic valve is currently plumbed to the vacuum collector as well. So it is actually providing three functions, vacuum for MAP sensor, vacuum for brake booster, air inlet for ISCV. I've also attached the evap canister VSV onto it as well, although not wired up.

I'll definitely check the brake booster (and the rest of the connections) once more, but I think it is okay at the moment from previous tests.

[aceforever]

I'm a bit frustrated with my throttle linkages. One of the bolts that hold the end fittings in place is stuck and there's no way to grip it properly to adjust the length.

I believe they are about ~4" long. I'm trying to make do with the linkage rod by adjusting the other linkage rod to a similar length then adjusting the arms to suit it. Kind of annoying.

[jondee86]

Kind of annoying.

One of the challenges of restoring an old car is that you will find things that
are "kind of annoying"

Bodged repair work done by previous owners... things seized solid by rust or lack
of lubrication... missing components... rounded off bolts... a birds nest of wires
behind the radio... broken clips on plastic items... rattles... stuff held together
with zip ties... frozen lug nuts... etc... etc

The key to success is to have patience and think about what needs to be done
before lauching an all out attack with a big hammer !! Nothing that you discover
will be completely unique... someone somewhere will have faced the problem before,
and with any luck solved it and posted the results on the interwebz. If it is not up
somewhere, you can ask here, and one of the members will have a suggestion.

There have been times when I have encountered problems that I have not had the
resources or skill to resolve, and I then take the problem to a workshop that does
have the skills. You have to know your limitations, and there is nothing to be gained
from taking out your frustrations on a piece of dumb metal.

Fixing old cars is character building, and you are doing OK

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks a bunch! It's definitely challenging and you do learn a lot once you figure it out. I'm glad to have the support of you and everyone else on this forum. It helps me stay motivated.

Meanwhile, I made a lot of progress today.

ISCV:

Found this one on a ~2000 BMW 5 series at the junkyard. Felt a little bad about taking it off a nice looking car, but the junkyard isn't very kind on the cars in it. Paid only $30 for it after tax.

Doing a bit of research, it seems like it's used on quite a few 95-06 BMWs.

0 280 140 545
1 744 713

Found it on a bmw parts site:

13411744713
T-SHAPE IDLE REGULATING VALVE
BOSCH

From:09/01/1994
To:-
Weight:0.530 kg
Price:$211.28

It is a 3-wire rotary type. I've tested it with a 9V battery and both circuits of the solenoid/motor are doing just fine. I've looked over the haltech manual prior and it does support driving what it calls BAC (bypass air control) and BAC inverse. Need to use up two of my 4 PWM controls. I think I'd have enough PWM controls in the future even with the this taking up half of my available controls.

In the future I'd need one for the Evap VSV and another for an electric radiator fan when I try to pursue more power.

CF Hood:
I got the CF hood on with the help of one of my friends. He helped grind down the hood latch holes so it could be adjusted higher up as the Seibon hood latch isn't low enough for the latch to lock properly. I've also used a lighter stiffness spring on the hood latch to account for the new hood weight.

The washer nozzle holes on the hood are a bit too big. I'll need to think of a way to secure them. So far I think I'll just use clear caulk on the back side since they are easy to tear off if necessary while providing some adhesion

Dragging rear caliper:
I've replaced the caliper with another re-manufactured unit under warranty. So far it seems to retract well. Going to let it sit overnight with the parking brake up and see if drags in the morning like before.

[jondee86]

In the future I'd need one for the Evap VSV and another for an electric radiator fan...

These type of controls use digital outputs. While you continue using distributor
ignition you have two unused ignition outputs that can be used as digital outputs.
One of these outputs can switch a fan on and off at specific temperatures. I'm
not sure if the other could control the evap VSV... you would need to be able to
select a suitable signal... maybe rpm above a certain value ?

With the ISCV the two PWM outputs are simply inverted... one decreases as the
other increases. You will need to set up a table of valve open % versus coolant
temperature. Trial and error works

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

While you continue using distributor
ignition you have two unused ignition outputs that can be used as digital outputs.
One of these outputs can switch a fan on and off at specific temperatures.

About that... I gave in and bought one of these from Japan:


I've checked it and it seems like it's an 4ageu model distributor. I'm hoping this is the 24+4 setup.

I'm hoping to accomplish three things with this distributor. This is pretty much purely for academic purposes since my current setup does the job well. I'm just curious to see if I can set this up properly.
1) getting home trigger to read properly when I grind the 4 tooth gear to 1 tooth
2) run sequential injectors
3) in the future run DLI

I'm not sure if the other could control the evap VSV... you would need to be able to
select a suitable signal... maybe rpm above a certain value ?

Good point! I see haltech has a Shift Light function that turns on above a definable RPM!

With the ISCV the two PWM outputs are simply inverted... one decreases as the
other increases. You will need to set up a table of valve open % versus coolant
temperature. Trial and error works

Thanks for the tip. Seems like the haltech settings is less granular.


I'm thinking 1200rpm for the initial 20 seconds, then idle at 1100 for warm up, then engine warm at 1000 or lower if possible.

[jondee86]

Seems like the haltech settings is less granular. I'm thinking 1200rpm for the
initial 20 seconds, then idle at 1100 for warm up, then engine warm at 1000
or lower if possible.

Hmm... the E6X idle control strategy is pretty basic, but in practice it should
work OK. The most important part of a cold start is getting extra air into the
engine for the first few seconds. After that (assuming that you have started
the car to drive somewhere) the ISCV will only be active if you come to a halt
at an intersection.

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

the E6X idle control strategy is pretty basic, but in practice it should
work OK.

I'm glad you agree. This will have to do for now.

---
Did some more work on the suspension today.


Replaced the passenger side tension rod. And took of NCRCA off. Because I did each side separately, I needed to jack up the LCA. Swaybar is probably doing its job to prevent "body roll". I needed a crowbar to get the NCRCAs off because the steering knuckles were stuck on after all this time.


Here's the other side.


I also took this opportunity to replace the inner tie rods and inspect the non-powered power steering rack. I was curious to see what the "BattleVersion Steering Kit #2" looked like on my car. Looks exactly as what Deuce Cam showed me. It's just a spacer. Interesting.


Got a few cuts and bruises after everything was put together and done. No pain no gain!

Will have to torque down all the tension rod bits and other bolts once I have eyeballed everything. Right now the camber plates are set to the most positive camber. I'm getting about ~0 camber on one side and about -1 camber on the other with my inaccurate phone app. I did notice caster is much different on both sides. Will try to adjust everything to match up at least and then get an alignment.

[jondee86]

Getting better all the time Caster does affect camber, so once you have
everything matched up you should have no problem setting 1.5 deg negative
camber both sides. Good progress happening now !!!

Cheers... jondee86

[aceforever]

Thanks jondee86!

Yeah I'm pretty excited for the suspension to not have oddities between the two sides!

As for overall suspension planning, I'm thinking about just getting new springs for the car and not deal with the shocks, but I'm unsure. I don't want to live with the 10k/8k spring rate forever. I heard from the previous owner that I could order QA1 springs and they should fit on my car. Looks like springs cost way less than a new coilover kit. Running about $50 a spring. So probably around $200 for a set of new springs.
http://www.qa1.net/suspension/springs?limit=all

Seems like Fortune Auto 500 coilovers start at $1200 without spindle w/8k/6k with the ability to change to custom spring rates if needed. Or $1500 with spindle. One thing good about the setup is that they have an OEM style over axle rear spring setup. My rear shock mounts aren't reinforced, so it's kind of risky to run true coilovers like I have currently.

---

I'll be focusing on the ISCV soon and then I can actually drive the car to an alignment shop. Perhaps I should set the ride height first too before going in.