OST-028: Redline it baby....

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oldeskewltoy
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OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:12 am

Yes... I know how to count, OST-027 hasn't been forgotten... :D



So... onto OST-028 Redline it baby...

I get a tub from Fed Ex.... yes a tub

Image

Image


As I unpack.... the goodies reveal themselves :D

Image


Dig a bit further.... note the cam cover studs poking through??

Image




Well the cam boxes were on top - note the punch marks in the cam outer packaging. No harm, no foul - the inner packaging, in this case, was not damaged, and neither were the cams.

Image

also worth noting... the Redline DCOE manifold, along with the T3 TVIS delete plate.



My audience tends to enjoy my little quizzes..... :)


length of intake port - mounting surface to back edge of intake valve = 4.1" (104mm)

thickness of T3 adapter = .9" (23mm)

The Redline DCOE manifold = 2.1"(53mm) Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).

The length of a DCOE (without velocity stack) = 4.64" (118mm)

Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500

Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate???



more to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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burdickjp
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:04 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500

Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate?


That torque peak is affected by intake harmonics, which will be very different here.
How long is an OEM bigport intake runner?
How about runner volume?

Most importantly: What's the intended application?
Pursuing the ideal

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:04 pm

burdickjp wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500

Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate?


That torque peak is affected by intake harmonics, which will be very different here.
How long is an OEM bigport intake runner?
How about runner volume?

Most importantly: What's the intended application?



Jeff... I'm trying to keep this simpler then WAAAY over peoples heads. For sake of this discussion I'm using the general equation N x L = 84,000

Best guess as far as OEM TVIS manifold port lengths 12.5" (measured along the outer radius of the manifold is 12.9")

As far as runner volume, it isn't going to be consistent... as I alluded too on #2 and #7 valves. The intake manifold runners are unequal.

So back to simple... I'm looking for the best intake length to ATTEMPT to get the torque peak @ 5500... so with that as a goal which of the two options available is the better one????
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:12 am

OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:50 pm

from another forum wrote:I'mma saaaayyy..... No he doesn't need it because of the lengths of the adapters and DCOEs.



from another forum wrote:Ummm... In terms of runner length and design, wouldn't it be better to go with the dcoe only?


Did you get a chance to read the ramtheory link? What I'm trying to do is back up the cams peak torque, by attempting to time the intake wave oscillations so that @ 5500 as the cam begins to come on its peak, I can add a bit of ram theory to better maximize that rpm band....

VERY simplified - because the valves open and close the intake charge is actually moving back and forth, or more accurately a pressure wave is moving back and forth inside the intake and the port. What I'm attempting to do is either add, or subtract the .9" of the delete plate to better match the intake length to the desired peak torque point (or as close as possible).

Shorter isn't always better..... :lol:

from another forum wrote:Thanks for the info OST! I think I learned a lot.

If I did the math correctly, you want to leave the TVIS delete in for the ideal runner length of ~11.65". With that length the pressure wave would travel the length of the runner exactly 8 times from intake valve opening to intake valve opening for maximum ram effect @5500 rpm.



Image

that's the theory....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby burdickjp » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:53 pm

What about testing both? Or make up the difference with velocity stack length?

What looks best on paper isn't always what is fastest, or best feeling.

What is the owner wanting out of it?
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:53 am

burdickjp wrote:What about testing both? Or make up the difference with velocity stack length?

Since I'm not building the engine, nor installing it, testing it is unlikely for me, but is an option for my client.

Velocity stack length can help tune things, but it is usually better to have the throttle plate[s] placed further away from the valve then closer to it - typically higher air velocity.

burdickjp wrote:What looks best on paper isn't always what is fastest, or best feeling.

no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.

burdickjp wrote:What is the owner wanting out of it?


early client email wrote:I am building a largeport and was
looking to get some head work done. On this build the block and crank are
from a 20v st, also bc rods and 11.1:1 wiseco pistons. I will be running
poncams. Im not looking for anything too crazy, just looking for your basic
job really. I am sure the chambers need work. Currently the head needs
decking


By the way... if you haven't yet figured it out... or surmised it... this client is no longer running those Wiseco's, he will be running the very first set of the OST/JE Asym pistons - ;)


more to come.... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby burdickjp » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:15 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.


Oh, absolutely. A lot more development in the 16v. Much easier to predict. Especially when you're close to someone who's probably got more man hours into development for it than everyone on this board combined.
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:47 pm

burdickjp wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.


Oh, absolutely. A lot more development in the 16v. Much easier to predict. Especially when you're close to someone who's probably got more man hours into development for it than everyone on this board combined.


see below....


from another forum wrote:i'd rather have the Wiseco's.

JE can suck it from personal experience.

others i know have had issues as well.
they switched to CP. no longer crack pistons.


Heh, ok.... I can't speak to your experiences... or "others" as you put it...

Since I have no direct piston building/design experience, I based my decision on what I saw @ the shop that builds these (4AGE engines) for a living...

In the 6 years I've been going to Loynings... I've never seen them use anything else... but JE Pistons :D



Head should be back on Monday from getting pressure checked....


Image



more to come.... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:07 am

from another forum wrote:Looks perty. :)

The head had serious work done before pressure checking? Or is this a post work extra check? I also consider pen-dye worthwhile in addition. You have opinion on it?

Can't wait to see what the performance looks like. :D


The client said the person he bought it from had cleaned and pressure checked it. It is clean, but for some reason **IF** it wasn't pressure checked $1000 worth of porting will be for naught... so for $60 we had it re-checked.


same poster as above wrote:As this is similar to my build, I'd guess peak torque is closer to 6200rpm. I imagine a fully optimized motor with OS valves running the poncams could come in around 180+hp crank, and on that alone TVIS delete is probably a good call.

I wanna disable my TVIS soon enough to compare low end response.


thank you for that.... The Tomei Poncam dyno shows peak @ 6000, it also shows that the peak is preceded by the climb to the peak 500 rpm early... @ 5500.

My purpose for trying to get the intake length a bit longer is to attempt to aid the torque rise... and in so doing offer the client a very strong mid range to peak rpm powerband.

Your intake length is closer to 17.5" (4.1head + .9TVIS + 12.5intake manifold to plenum) @ what rpm point does that length favor??

Just doing a quick bit of basic math shows 17.5" is not a clean equation for an intake pulse @ 5500. 17.5 does not divide 93 without a remainder, it does divide cleanly by 87.5, or 105

Maybe we can get one of our other math wizards to give us the rpm levels those 2 numbers calculate out too......
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:13 pm

The head pressure checked out fine....

Image

she now carries her new serial number.... :)


More to come.... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:50 pm

deburring..... these are the 2 exhaust valve bucket cradles from #2 cyl

Image



not multiply that by 8...





more to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:37 am

Now that the pistons are finalized and being built, its time to return my focus towards the head.


oldeskewltoy wrote:
The Redline DCOE manifold.... Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).


Image


:cry:


....looking at the problem from a different perspective....


Image

The red lines represent the air path from the carb mount flange to the valves. The carb spacing is wider than the ports, and leads to the awkward set up you see.........







So I got to thinking..... what if.....

Image




So last night I made this......

Image

Image

besides showing the mismatches between manifold, delete plate and head... it does do what I was thinking.... AND it dramatizes what the problem is...

Image





I'm just not sure.... so I'll be getting a few opinions.........


To answer a few questions up front... 1) nothing has been ported yet so these are not the final pieces... 2) The rubber would still not be the final part The rubber would be the mold to make the final part. Each piece would have an external screw, as well as epoxy for final mounting.....?????
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:25 pm

from another forum wrote:how about making a flow test of the versions with and without TVIS delete? I know it's a lot of work but might be worth it to see a tendancy as well as difference between the outer and inner ports.
Also in this case staggered intake lenghts (trumpets) might be an option.


I'm not sure if I'm chasing imaginary, or real results.... as I said I'll be asking more from a few people I confer with.


Image

As can be seen below, and as noted in the above post, the entire intake needs to be manipulated/adjusted, and then blended as one

Image

black arrows - show direction of incoming air
solid blue lines - show areas to be ported
dashed blue line represents - the amount the manifold needs to be moved up.


So it is vital to determine the actual location of the manifold... in relation to the T3 delete plate, and then once they are mounted as one, to determine the T3 plate on the head.


So using 2 long bolts I fasten the manifold to the T3 plate set them as carefully as I can ( aligning the bottom port edges to be as flush as possible through all 4 ports) and them tightening the bolts to lock the 2 together.

Then I pick 2 points in the flange, one between cyl 1 and 2, the other between 3 and 4, that I can drill 2 small (3/32") holes... through the manifold and into the T3 plate. Then, using 3/32" x 1" roll(tension) pins I mount the manifold to the T3 plate in one place.

Image

Image
{note far left port in manifold(bottom in photo) has been ported to size, while the other 3 ports await...}

This, the roll pin mounts, will allow me to repeatedly mount and dismount the manifold from the T3 plate and then reaffix them in the same place, time after time.



As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...

Image

so when laid over the intake... you can see the bottom edge, and the top edge of the head are in the airstream. The T3 plate is well situated horizontally. So as with the other T3 products I've worked, jack screws are added, and I'll be elongating the T3 mount holes to allow me vertical adjustment with the jack screws.


Image


More to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:20 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...

Image




Because of this I have to make a choice....

Image

up it is...


A lot more to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:41 am

from another forum wrote:Under "choice" you mean question where to grind head up/down/both sides?


yes..... Any porter will tell you if you must open (change) a port... TRY to do so by decreasing the angle to the valve.


So the port roof will be tapered to match the roof of the T3 delete plate....



Image

view on far left shows stock shape, center view shows what I normally do with a largeport, and finally in the far right view the dotted line shows what I'll be doing in this case.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:36 pm

Image

exhaust port 2 in transition
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:27 pm

from another forum wrote:Lookit you and these fancy transition pictures!!! lol


what can I say... :)




#3 intake - bowls and seats roughed out....


Image

a LOT of material was removed from that right side bowl (#5 valve)


More to come.... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:21 pm

bowl #4 as it grows from 24.8mm to 26.2mm

Image
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:05 pm

Shaping #1 intake bowls/short radii

Image


and with the intake bowls and seats finished...

Image

Oh... the exhaust bowls, seats and ports are now done as well :D


Next will come a bit of deshrouding.....


More to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby Gino1X1 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:31 am

this is so much... uuhmmm, what's the internet language for it?... WIN!!! is it?? when something is shown with so much detail and proven to work?

Yes, bigger is not always better. What is the intended use of this bullet?

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:28 pm

Gino1X1 wrote:this is so much... uuhmmm, what's the internet language for it?... WIN!!! is it?? when something is shown with so much detail and proven to work?

Yes, bigger is not always better. What is the intended use of this bullet?


Not entirely sure... client mentioned something about a mixed track and "street" car


So with the ports nearly finished... I proceed to the chamber work. Basic, or minimum deshrouding to start....

Image


... but more will be required...

Image

...because we have already lost some of our volume.... this head has likely been cut .012"-.014"........



More to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:14 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Image

...because we have already lost some of our volume.... this head has likely been cut .012"-.014"........


but the surface has some flaws... and the finish on the cut is not as good as I like to have...
Image


So the added cut cost me and my client .004"...


Image

... but now I have a final surface I'll fit the valves and get chamber volumes..... and proceed with final chamber sizing



but... we have a problem.... remember how well this was all packed? Well the valves were packed in individual marked bags.

Image

Each bag contained a valve, a spring, a retainer, a spring seat, and 2 keepers, a lifter/bucket, and a shim. It appeared that the valves had previous been machined as well... not just clean, but machined.

Since this was the first head I had accepted that had come with valves already machined, and me, being careful, I had the guys @ Loynings check the valves for me.... just in case.

It was a good thing I did... 12 of the 16 valves are either ever so slightly bent, OR they were machined incorrectly

Image

There is a .003" "wobble" to the above valve. Acceptable "wobble" is .001". Of the 12 valves out of spec, they range from .002" to .004".

The valves may be able to be re-cut, but the few that are the furthest out might not get concentric before I run out of margin (edge of valve). So I've recommended to my client I can supply him with 16 good used valves that I'll have cut to specification... OR the client can opt for Supertech valves. I await his decision....



more to come........ :mrgreen:
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:58 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
So I've recommended to my client I can supply him with 16 good used valves that I'll have cut to specification...



Image

going through some exhaust valves... looking for valves with a good margin - over 1mm, so they can be cut and still have enough margin for durability. Did the same with intakes...


more to come.... :mrgreen:
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:04 pm

[QUOTE=oldeskewltoy;411742]So with the ports nearly finished... I proceed to the chamber work. Basic, or minimum deshrouding to start....

Image


... but more will be required...
[/QUOTE]

I wasn't sure how much... after all... the clients valves were not going to be used, I had picked through my old valves for a decent set. So "new" valves, and had them ground, along with the 3 angle grind.... after all of that....

Chamber volumes were....

Image

35cc, 35.2cc, 35.2cc, 35.1cc (based on beginning meniscus levels)

All in all not too bad, well within acceptable tolerance... but I worked #1 a bit more then the other three, I'll have finished chamber volumes by Monday...



Now here is the progression of chamber #2....

Image


More to come.......... :mrgreen:
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:30 pm

The port roofs are now blended to meet the delete plate


Image




and the injector ports are ready for filling.... :shock:


Image

5 - 3/32" holes about 2-3mm deep spaced around the injector port. These, along with the top of the injector port, will be the anchor points for the JB Weld...


Yep JB Weld.... I've done a LOT of research into this. I've looked at some of the other products - Devcon for instance, and none of them offer the temp, and holding capability of the JB Weld - http://www.jbweld.com/faqs/


More to come........ 8-)
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:26 am

Image


more to come........ :mrgreen:
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Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:14 pm

The above 2 panel was injector port #1...



here is the work on injector port #3

Image

Its just been finished(filling).... note the change in the clay... it is a vital tool in this operation for it allows "adjusting" the volume of JB Weld - by either pulling the clay, or pressing the clay, i can change the level at the port roof.


Image

Also I learned from injector port #1(center in photo above), that it is a bit better to begin filling the port with the clay slightly free to allow the JB Weld to completely fill the injector side of the port. There is enough JB Weld on #1, but #2(far right) is a more complete fill.


it is a vital tool


and here are a few others....

Image

I use builders shims in a LOT of my work... they are great for setting the head up for checking chamber volumes, and here I'm using them as applicator/spatula, and as my palate for mixing, and applying. The dental tool helps remove the clay, or as much as I can... the spent tubes of JB Weld... and my finger! A wet finger allows me to shape and fill the voids... I prefer to use water... but saliva works in a pinch :P



more to come....... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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negrizio
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:40 pm

Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby negrizio » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:55 pm

Verry ineresting thread !!!! :D

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oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1655
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:51 am

negrizio wrote:Verry ineresting thread !!!! :D


thank you kind sir....... :)




Image

Here is a clearer view of the filled and finished injector ports - the coarse appearance is a 100 grit surface finish to aid in keeping the fuel atomized - closer view of this finish to follow



Image
The lower photo was taken with a different camera setting... that is why the bowls appear smaller in the lower view

Another OST 3 -panel... This one shows the bowls, ports, and delete plate. The Green dotted horizontal lines show the excessive size of the delete plate, the green arrow shows that I slotted and "moved" the whole plate up, eliminating the bottom horizontal... but doubling the upper one, so the port roof was tapered to meet the raised delete plate. The dotted yellow line shows the cavity that was the injector port. The red dotted lines attempt (poor drawing skills - apologies) to show the areas ported around the port to bowl transition - the port floor at the transition point to the short radius is left untouched! Finally, the blue lines show the guide boss areas that are blended back for improve volume and velocity, the guides have been knocked back for the same reason.


more to come........ :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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