Ideas Please.....

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Cortina69
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Ideas Please.....

Postby Cortina69 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:11 pm

Hello There,

I have just gone against the grain over this side of the pond and put a 4age 16 (largeport) into my mk2 Ford Cortina, an idea that is either going to make or break the purists. But before she even turns over in anger, I’m looking at what to do next, so I thought I’d open the idea to the floor.

At the moment, its only had 20v S/T itbs fitted running on an aftermarket emerald ecu, with a 4-1 custom exhaust fitted. Firstly, happy with the period look so don’t want full 20v set-up…or turbo/blower.

I have been told if I want to keep it N/A, head, cams and springs is the next step. Was thinking of 272??

Also, what’s next after that…was thinking of a 7age build, but with the car weighting around 700kgs, is it worth doing and just build a good solid 4age? Don’t want massive bhp (160?) because I don’t want to start fitting cages into it, happy with the 60’s look with something different under the bonnet as a surprise.

Your thoughts?

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PDB
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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby PDB » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:17 pm

That's made me smile, once I've finished putting the 4age into my Starlet, I'll be starting to put one in my mates MK2 Cortina also.

His is a 2 door super in white.

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Ideas Please.....

Postby PDB » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:19 pm

That's my starlet as it was a few months ago, the black hatch, and that's his cortina in the background

Image

Any pointers or problems you encountered ?

We've already got the engine, and a type 9 box with the bell-housing to suit the 4age

Cortina69
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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Cortina69 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:33 pm

search "4age Cortina by Retropower" on facebook

Unfortunately, I'm away from home quite alot, and so asked these lads to fit it. As far as i know, its been straight forward, but has had almost all the parts renewed inc the cortina's electrics.

The photos on the page show a step by step guide to how they done it.

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jondee86
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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby jondee86 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:02 pm

Cortina69 wrote:I have been told if I want to keep it N/A, head, cams and springs is the
next step. Was thinking of 272??

Exactly this ^^^^ and if you don't have the "smallport" version
of the 4AGE, bump the compression to around 10.5:1 while you
have the engine apart. Use 272's with as much lift as you can
squeeze in without having to change to under bucket shims or
shimless lifters.

Nearest you will get to a Lotus Cortina :)

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

sirdeuce
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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:41 pm

I'd say keep the 4AGE over the 7AGE. The car is light enough to not need the torque a 7A has to offer.
One shot, one kill.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:19 am

Cortina69 wrote:Hello There,

I have just gone against the grain over this side of the pond and put a 4age 16 (largeport) into my mk2 Ford Cortina, an idea that is either going to make or break the purists. But before she even turns over in anger, I’m looking at what to do next, so I thought I’d open the idea to the floor.

At the moment, its only had 20v S/T itbs fitted running on an aftermarket emerald ecu, with a 4-1 custom exhaust fitted. Firstly, happy with the period look so don’t want full 20v set-up…or turbo/blower.

I have been told if I want to keep it N/A, head, cams and springs is the next step. Was thinking of 272??

Also, what’s next after that…was thinking of a 7age build, but with the car weighting around 700kgs, is it worth doing and just build a good solid 4age? Don’t want massive bhp (160?) because I don’t want to start fitting cages into it, happy with the 60’s look with something different under the bonnet as a surprise.

Your thoughts?


Just grind the Toyota off the valve covers and tell them it's an updated Cosworth BDA.

If you want to run 272s you will definitely want to increase compression significantly. Even with the stock cams the LP compression is depressingly low by today's standards and needs to be addressed at least as badly as cams.
Then the question is do you need 272s?

This package is a great setup for the vast majority of 4A owners looking to stay NA and gain a little pep. It should get you about 50% more power which for the buck isn't bad.

http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/16 ... nd-pistons

The next step up I'd go with a Kelford 193-B and a custom piston with slightly higher compression than the above setup.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ke ... hafts-4age

If you can go 7A there isn't really any reason not to aside from the slightly higher cost over a basic 4AGE build.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Cortina69 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:07 am

Many Thanks for your replys gents,

Whats the quickest and easiest way to boost C/R?

I was thinking the 7age route purely for that something different that i love under the bonnet of my classic. With 7afe engine selling for a couple of hundread $$ over here, seemed a good project to start.

Or do i stick with the lump i have a improve? Stroker Kit?

Again ideas please, enjoying the posts

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:42 am

I would go 7A. Only real reason not to is if you intent to rev it past 8500 or so RPM. The long stroke isn't well suited to that.
A stroker kit will cost you a lot more money than a 7A. It's not generally a route worth the money unless you have specific needs like meeting displacement requirements for a racing series or if for example you wanted more displacement than a 4A with shorter stroke than the 7A. Again this would be useful for very high RPM builds.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Toy86 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:50 am

+1 for Yoshimitsuspeed, and his comment. The 7A would be your best option for the buck, not worth swapping out internals and machining the 4a block to fit a stroker kit. The only thing you would have to do to the 7A block is swap out the pistons to some 4ag pistons to bump up the C/R. I've read ppl just slapping the 4ag head on the stock 7a block and automatically feeling major differences compared to their 4ag's. Adding the 4ag pistons to the 7a internals will just give it even a bit more power. You can find a lot of this information on this topic in the archive section of this forum all this info is in there. The amount of power you would develop still wouldn't require you to add a cage in the Cortina. In fact i don't think you would have to add a cage period, unless you want to really want to stiffen your chassis up or it's required by law for certain HP vehicles to add cages for street use where you're from. It all really depends on how much u want to modify the Cortina and to what purpose you want to use it for.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:40 am

Cortina69 wrote:Hello There,

I have just gone against the grain over this side of the pond and put a 4age 16 (largeport) into my mk2 Ford Cortina, an idea that is either going to make or break the purists. But before she even turns over in anger, I’m looking at what to do next, so I thought I’d open the idea to the floor.

At the moment, its only had 20v S/T itbs fitted running on an aftermarket emerald ecu, with a 4-1 custom exhaust fitted. Firstly, happy with the period look so don’t want full 20v set-up…or turbo/blower.

I have been told if I want to keep it N/A, head, cams and springs is the next step. Was thinking of 272??

Also, what’s next after that…was thinking of a 7age build, but with the car weighting around 700kgs, is it worth doing and just build a good solid 4age? Don’t want massive bhp (160?) because I don’t want to start fitting cages into it,
happy with the 60’s look with something different under the bonnet as a surprise.

Your thoughts?


A properly built 4AGE with 272 cams should make about 145-160 whp, depending on the build. A properly ported head helps a great deal. As far as valve train, you might be able to use stock springs, but for competition I'd use Toda springs. If you have the time and resources you can retro fit Toyota 1SZ one piece buckets instead of the original bucket/shim - these will eliminate any chance of flipping a shim.

If I were building a 7AGE, I'd keep cams to 256, with about 9mm lift, I'd also run an O/S valve head... but now you have blown way past your power goals
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:16 am

Toy86 wrote:+1 for Yoshimitsuspeed, and his comment. The 7A would be your best option for the buck, not worth swapping out internals and machining the 4a block to fit a stroker kit. The only thing you would have to do to the 7A block is swap out the pistons to some 4ag pistons to bump up the C/R. I've read ppl just slapping the 4ag head on the stock 7a block and automatically feeling major differences compared to their 4ag's. Adding the 4ag pistons to the 7a internals will just give it even a bit more power. You can find a lot of this information on this topic in the archive section of this forum all this info is in there. The amount of power you would develop still wouldn't require you to add a cage in the Cortina. In fact i don't think you would have to add a cage period, unless you want to really want to stiffen your chassis up or it's required by law for certain HP vehicles to add cages for street use where you're from. It all really depends on how much u want to modify the Cortina and to what purpose you want to use it for.


A couple notes.
If you run 4AGE pistons you have to remember that the added stroke will add about a full point of compression so a 9.4:1 4AGE piston will be around 10.4:1 compression.

The 7A rod puts the piston about .6mm down in the bore. This makes it very hard to get an acceptable squish gap unless you shave the block a good bit.

The 7A rod uses a press fit pin. To use a 4AGE piston you would want to have a machinist open the rod and put a floating bushing in it. At this point the rod will be considerably weaker.

Or you can solve both those problems by using my rods that are .6mm longer and designed for 4AGE floating pins.
http://matrixgarage.com/products/brian- ... -beam-rods

You will also need to factor for the change in cam timing before you see the expected gains.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:21 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:If I were building a 7AGE, I'd keep cams to 256, with about 9mm lift, I'd also run an O/S valve head... but now you have blown way past your power goals


Due to the added stroke and added cylinder filling you would want to run at least as much if not more cam on a stroker to maintain the same point of peak power as you would on the standard motor.
So for example if 264s make peak power at 7k RPM on a 4AGE it's quite likely that on those same cams peak power will be made a little lower on a 7AGE.
In some situations porting or valve sizing can help move that power curve back up but you will have to decide if it's worth the expense.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:57 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:If I were building a 7AGE, I'd keep cams to 256, with about 9mm lift, I'd also run an O/S valve head... but now you have blown way past your power goals


Due to the added stroke and added cylinder filling you would want to run at least as much if not more cam on a stroker to maintain the same point of peak power as you would on the standard motor.
So for example if 264s make peak power at 7k RPM on a 4AGE it's quite likely that on those same cams peak power will be made a little lower on a 7AGE.
In some situations porting or valve sizing can help move that power curve back up but you will have to decide if it's worth the expense.


without turning this thread into a battle.....264s typically make power to about 8k rpm, a 256 will limit the peak rpm range to take into account the 7AGE's undersquare nature. It will also limit the potential for breaking the 7A crank. Also "some" is misleading, for some porting and/or valve sizing can VASTLY improve cylinder filling which improves the entire rpm range, not just the top end. A good example of this is using the "G" head over the "F" head.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Gino1X1 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:56 am

The stock 7A headgasket also helps boost comp.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:50 pm

Because no one has ever spun a 7A crank to 8k RPM before and we see reports of them breaking left and right.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:35 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Because no one has ever spun a 7A crank to 8k RPM before and we see reports of them breaking left and right.


the 7A crank uses a 6 bolt flywheel. There are some reports (albeit unconfirmed) of there being failure @ the flywheel... Most other 7A failures I've heard of are rod/rod bolt related... which just about any aftermarket rod solves.

For a solid street 7AG - keeping cams a bit more conservative you needn't worry about the crank or rods... and as to their press fit nature, they don't have to be opened for floating pins... press fit will work, especially along with the milder cams... the original 4AGE used press fit with more than satisfactory results. A copy of the 8.9 CR dome fitted to a custom piston with the comp height raised to match the block minus a .006" cut to provide a nice clean block surface. Then either a 1.0mm gasket, or a .8mm gasket.

As to spinning the 7A crank to 8000, I can't tell you. What I can tell you is Loynings "Tall blocks" (Loyning speak for 7AGEs) typically use a $5000 crank of 85-91mm stroke. These engines usually run 270ish cams and twist to about 8000-8300. They also make 260hp and 175#/ft
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Cortina69
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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Cortina69 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:40 am

As discribed, for a solid street 7age. Which cams do you recommend? Also, if i change the cams, pistons and rods, what return would I expect to see(bhp)?

Would it be best to stay on S/T itbs?

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby Toy86 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:33 am

IMO, i think this is too broad of a question to ask. i've read on this forum lots of ppl building a 7AG N/A, and boosted, but very few of them post up real numbers/dyno charts.

There are very many combinations you can use that can get you different types of numbers.

I think it all really depends on how much money you want to spend in building the engine, that is going to give you want you want.

Also, Oldskewltoy, kinda answered you question a bit as well.

oldeskewltoy wrote:For a solid street 7AG - keeping cams a bit more conservative you needn't worry about the crank or rods... and as to their press fit nature, they don't have to be opened for floating pins... press fit will work, especially along with the milder cams... the original 4AGE used press fit with more than satisfactory results. A copy of the 8.9 CR dome fitted to a custom piston with the comp height raised to match the block minus a .006" cut to provide a nice clean block surface. Then either a 1.0mm gasket, or a .8mm gasket.

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Re: Ideas Please.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:50 am

Cortina69 wrote:As discribed, for a solid street 7age. Which cams do you recommend? Also, if i change the cams, pistons and rods, what return would I expect to see(bhp)?

Would it be best to stay on S/T itbs?


It all depends on budget and goals. While it's always challenging to say how much power x mods will make it's almost impossible to say without enough information.
You could have a 160 CHP 7AGE or a 250 CHP 7AGE that would both be very fun on the street. The difference is only about $20k. There would also be some impact on longevity.

Give your budget and your goals and we can try to bring those two things together in a way that works best for you.

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