Ae86 handling question

[Dereleek_]

To start off, I basically need some convincing. Currently I dd an e30 325e and I love it. Underpowered, yes, but it makes up for it in handling balance and character. As a project car I own a Nissan s13 with a sr20det. It's fun also, and you can slide it around everywhere, mostly because of the power. Even though it's a lot of fun, I am not sure the s-chassis is my cup of tea. The s-chassis guys are cool, but I never really feel like I fit in with that crowd. On the other hand I have met a few classic Toyota guys when I am poking around at the junk yard, and they have all been super cool. Anyways, what I would like to know about is handling characteristics of the 86. The thing I love about my e30 is the dynamic chassis. You can get it to slide just by pitching it in hard. Turn in is amazing under braking (and my suspension is pretty much stock). You can modify your line in a corner very easy and predictably. I would really like to hear some opinions on the handling of a mildly tuned 86. Any feedback is much appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[burdickjp]

I'm not as happy with how my AE86 handles compared to how my AW11 MR2 handled. It was very predictable and pointable, but that might just be that it had a better sorted suspension than my AE86 currently does.

If you're not concerned about the space, take a look at AW11s.

[Dereleek_]

Thanks burdickjp for the reply. I have considered aw11's before, but I am mostly looking for an FR car. I really do like the looks of the aw11 though!

[burdickjp]

Why FR?

[Dereleek_]

Probably I am intimidated by MR haha. I know FR pretty well, and I find them fun and usually pretty easy to work on. I also like the unassuming aspect of older FR cars. For instance with the e30, most people just view it as an old beater or something. I kind of like that. I feel that the 86 has some of that unassuming nature. I would probably even consider a ke70 if I could find one for a good price. The MR2 is a bucket list car for me, but at this moment of time I want a flying box of FR goodness

[burdickjp]

I would argue it's much easier to get the AW11 sorted than the Corolla. My AW11 was very predictable.

The AW11 also has a much better transmission. You can even put together a 6 speed for it inexpensively and easily.

Having driven both I would say less people notice the MR2 than the Corolla. I'm not sure why.

The reason I went with the Corolla was to be able to transport wheels, tools, and luggage without removing a seat, otherwise I'd say the MR2 is without a doubt the better car:
*4x100 wheels are lighter and easier to source
*better brakes
*lighter
*less drivetrain loss
*better gear ratios and much wider range of ratios available
*less difficult and less expensive to upgrade suspension
*more headroom for helmets

[Dereleek_]

Thanks for all the information! I'll have to investigate and reconsider the aw11. Is the engine bay pretty cramped? Did you track yours?

[burdickjp]

Thanks for all the information! I'll have to investigate and reconsider the aw11. Is the engine bay pretty cramped? Did you track yours?

There's just a little less room than an FF Corolla. People swap V6s into the things.

I never got mine on the track. I autocrossed it regularly. I have a friend who's been tracking his AW11 for decades and tends to make people feel inadequate in much, much more exotic cars.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I would argue it's much easier to get the AW11 sorted than the Corolla. My AW11 was very predictable.

The AW11 also has a much better transmission. You can even put together a 6 speed for it inexpensively and easily.

Having driven both I would say less people notice the MR2 than the Corolla. I'm not sure why.

The reason I went with the Corolla was to be able to transport wheels, tools, and luggage without removing a seat, otherwise I'd say the MR2 is without a doubt the better car:
*4x100 wheels are lighter and easier to source
*better brakes
*lighter
*less drivetrain loss
*better gear ratios and much wider range of ratios available
*less difficult and less expensive to upgrade suspension
*more headroom for helmets

You didn't mention fully independent suspension. I haven't pushed an AE86 so I can't comment on the handling but I can tell you I don't think a solid axle belongs on anything that doesn't crawl through boulder fields.
If my AE86 ever gets put on the road it will almost guaranteed get independent rear suspension.

Stock the AW11 handles better than most cars. Throw in poly bushings, good springs and shocks and some good tires and you can give some much more powerful and expensive cars a good surprise as long as you keep them in the corners.
The weight distribution changes the handling characteristics a little bit but if you really know how to drive it's a non issue. If you don't really know how to drive it's a good opportunity to learn. Take it to a HPDE and learn how to push it seafely.

[burdickjp]

You didn't mention fully independent suspension. I haven't pushed an AE86 so I can't comment on the handling but I can tell you I don't think a solid axle belongs on anything that doesn't crawl through boulder fields.
If my AE86 ever gets put on the road it will almost guaranteed get independent rear suspension.

Stock the AW11 handles better than most cars. Throw in poly bushings, good springs and shocks and some good tires and you can give some much more powerful and expensive cars a good surprise as long as you keep them in the corners.
The weight distribution changes the handling characteristics a little bit but if you really know how to drive it's a non issue. If you don't really know how to drive it's a good opportunity to learn. Take it to a HPDE and learn how to push it seafely.

It all depends on what you are wanting to do with it. The way I understood it, the OP was talking about driving fun and chassis communication. You don't need to be the fastest car on the track to be having the most fun. This is much of why I like 4As and the cars they came in.

I view the AE86 in a holistic manner (the whole is more than the sum of its parts), which is why I'm somewhat averse to engine swaps or drastic changes to the chassis or suspension (such as IRS conversions). It changes the formula, and while the end result could be argued to be more capable than where it came from, it is no longer what makes an AE86 special.

The AW11 is gestalt as well, and I'm similarly hesitant about drastic changes to it, though you can get away with quite a lot with the AW11 chassis without really changing the formula. Switching from a C52 to a C60 transmission (5 speed to 6 speed in the same transmission family) is a good example. Funny enough, I'm not even a fan of the supercharged MR2. I've driven a rather powerful 3S-GTE AW11 as well (one of the first ones built) and it just didn't do it for me.

The 4A-GE is part of the equation, and in the case of the AE86, so is that live rear end.

[Dereleek_]

Interesting, thanks for the reply's guys. After watching old race videos, I am always impressed that the AE86 did it all with a live rear axle. I agree, burdickjp, I find I enjoy myself more with chassis performance rather than power and speed. That's why I think I am interested in looking into older cars. I find with the ones I have driven, especially RWD one, the grip levels are low, and the rear end comes out easy (I know that attribute doesn't sound appealing to everyone). To me that is a lot of fun, that's mainly the reason I was asking about AE86. I have never driven a MR, but now I am interested in doing so. I am still interested in an ae86 too. I'll have to keep researching

[oldeskewltoy]

interesting to listen to this thread so far... from 2 people with more transverse engine mounted drive time... then longitudinally engine mounted drive time

Dereleek - a bit about me.... I'm olde(55), been around cars for over 40 years... MOST of the cars I've owned have been FR.

The AW11 may, or may not be faster around a track, but the AW11 does NOT exhibit classic FR driving... the AE86 can... and it can in many different guises... soft, medium, or hard... the AE86 exhibits classic front engine rear drive character. It is NOT as forgiving as an E30... because it does have a solid axle.

Yoshi... there are tons of VERY fast cars that ran solid axles, the only REAL place an independent suspension is truly superior is on medium surface conditions where the 2 tires can act truly independently. On a track, the surface is frequently perfect... or near perfect that solid, or IRS can be built to perform well..

There is another factor in the AE86 that is NOT present in the AW11... and that is track to wheel base ratio is more unstable in the AE86... yep... the track to wheelbase ratio is a bit outside the normal window most manufacturers try to fit their cars into. Being outside this norm, the AE86 tends to offer a more nimble feel. Again this is not fastest speed around a track... this is the "fun" ratio... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... se%20ratio

[jondee86]

AW11 MR2 Suspension Tuning Guide
A guide to more predictability and fun... by Moto-P

http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/aw11_mr2_tuning_guide.htm

Cheers... jondee86