OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

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oldeskewltoy
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OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:53 am

I've been working with JE Piston now for about 3 months in developing a "new" piston for the 4AGE 16V. I sent them pistons, rods and this chamber casting

Image

Why put new inside quote marks? Because the pistons crown isn't anything new... the "new" pistons crown design is actually rather olde... The crown of the new piston was derived from 13101-AE851.

Image


So why a new piston?

Nearly every 4AGE piston out there has a significant dome because of 2 reasons....

1) Nearly every 4AGE piston is designed for O/S valves, either 1mm O/S or full on Atalntic... 2mm O/S. Accommodating O/S valves in your pistons lowers compression, and thus requires more crown to compensate.


2) This reason is far more subtle... the crown shape of the olde TRD piston extends to just past the valve reliefs, to a tapered edge that diverts/directs the "squish" up @ the spark plug. Because of this extended area, the crown can actually be LOWER.

Why is a lower crown better? Superior flame propagation.



So if the crown isn't new, then what is new?

The skirt...... JE Piston's Asymmetrical skirts

Image

The original piston was designed with minimal skirt width... remember this had been designed as a high performance piston and low drag is a benefit. The problem with the 13101-AE851 wasn't the crown... but the VERY narrow skirt - about 41mm. That narrow works for a time, but it will not be long lived. The thrust side of the JE Asymmetrical is over 57mm providing a much more stable piston on the major thrust load side.


Availability:
cylinder bores - 81mm, 81.5mm, 82mm

wrist pins - 18mm, or 20mm

compression height - 30.5mm

crown volume - 2.5cc

Compression ratio range: 10.7 to 12.2*

10.7 - stock undecked block, stock head gasket, combustion chamber volume of 37cc
12.2 - decked block, stock head gasket, combustion chamber volume of 32.5cc

* 12.6 - zero deck, TRD .8mm gasket, combustion chamber volume of 32.5cc



Now.... the bad news... they aren't free :(

MSRP = $675.00 per set - this includes low tension rings. Options: Coated skirts + $70.00. Checking on crown coating costs at this time.

As always freight is extra.

The first set is tentatively sold at a partial discount.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby ogdougynutty » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:04 pm

Wow these are great looking, when ever i decide of building a 7age these will definitely be considered . Very nice work!!!

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:49 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:2) This reason is far more subtle... the crown shape of the olde TRD piston extends to just past the valve reliefs, to a tapered edge that diverts/directs the "squish" up @ the spark plug.

OEM 10.3 in top view
Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby tiprock » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:14 pm

are these available with a ~27.6mm compression height?
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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:23 am

tiprock wrote:are these available with a ~27.6mm compression height?


long rod???

or stroker... possibly 7A?

I can ask if they can make it, but it likely would be more $. Send me an email if you are genuinely interested.

oldeskewltoy@yahoo.com subject: pistons
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:56 am

It's no longer tentative... the first set is sold - 82mm bore 20mm wrist pin. Once they arrive I'll go through and take photos and get their actual mass
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:24 pm

UPDATE:

After in-depth consultation, the FSR skirt is being discarded in favor of a full skirted JE piston. The new dome will be retained, but the FSR /Asym skirts are NOT going to be used, I'm having the new piston retain JE Pistons full skirt.

WHY - ? Do to rod to stroke ratio, and engine speeds the FSR/Asym piston tends to "beat up" the 4AG cylinder bores. My whole intention with this piston is to supply a long lasting performance upgrade.

So... the new pistons will be fully skirted, and will carry the new crown.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby burdickjp » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:50 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:UPDATE:

After in-depth consultation, the FSR skirt is being discarded in favor of a full skirted JE piston. The new dome will be retained, but the FSR /Asym skirts are NOT going to be used, I'm having the new piston retain JE Pistons full skirt.

WHY - ? Do to rod to stroke ratio, and engine speeds the FSR/Asym piston tends to "beat up" the 4AG cylinder bores. My whole intention with this piston is to supply a long lasting performance upgrade.

So... the new pistons will be fully skirted, and will carry the new crown.


Yeah, our R/S sucks :cry:
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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:53 pm

from another forum wrote:So basicly back to that design:
Image
Except the valves pockets and a lot better price I believe. (Tomei are pricey)


The Tomei slugs list for - ¥128000 - €928 - $1259.00. Sell for???

OST/JE - MSRP - $750.00, I'm selling them for $675.00.


the skirts will be closed.... like the piston skirt on the right in view below....

Image

The mass will be VERY similar because the skirt walls are thinner, the closed skirt is for piston stability...


the crown is going to be very close to this..... :o

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby negrizio » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:17 pm

Whare are the prices on these pinstos?

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:28 pm

negrizio wrote:Whare are the prices on these pinstos?


MSRP = $750.00 per set.... I'm selling them for $675.00
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:56 pm

from another forum wrote:Hi Dan

This area look like a hotspot to me. Will this not cause problems with detonation?

Image

OST wrote:I spoke to a few people about this and it might be an issue. I then spoke to JE and for JE Piston to set up the mill to "clip" those 4 corners(2 tiny peaks on the intake side similar to 2 on the exhaust side) on each piston would add over $200 to the price of a set... now the good news your machinist can do it prior to install!

Image

The loss to the crown volume is about 1/10 of a cc total for all 4 "peaks"

edit - one thing to add to this... these still are a replacement forged piston... piston crowns typically need a bit of burnishing/sanding(or steel wool-ing) to knock the edges back anyway, in this case I'll show how.


The new pistons arrive....

Image


Using a diamond abrasive band I remove the 4 offending protrusions, and then using a 220 buff, I work the entire crown

Image


A different perspective....

Image

the arrows are pointing to where the 4 offenders were removed.... the "back" 2 arrows are pointing to the "worst" of the offenders... those by the exhaust valves.


this set of OST/JE pistons is ready for fitment ;)


Pistons:
$675.00 (without crown re-shaping, or any coatings - straight from JE Piston)
Additions:
$40.00 - with OST re-shaped crowns
$75.00 - with slipper coating on the skirts
$75.00 - with ceramic crown coating - NOT available with OST crown work
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby Jimmee1990 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:20 am

Which valve size are these to suit? By the way it was worded I thought standard size, but it never pays to assume. Shame I'm using oversize valves, this really is the best crown shape otherwise.

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:11 am

Jimmee1990 wrote:Which valve size are these to suit? By the way it was worded I thought standard size, but it never pays to assume. Shame I'm using oversize valves, this really is the best crown shape otherwise.


plenty of pistons out there for O/S valves.... this is the only aftermarket piston for standard size valves.


Have you looked @ the new Supertech piston?? http://supertechperformance.com/cat-Pis ... 1&en2=5581


Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:58 am

Jimmee1990 wrote:Which valve size are these to suit? By the way it was worded I thought standard size, but it never pays to assume. Shame I'm using oversize valves, this really is the best crown shape otherwise.


I can get a number of different pistons or if none suit your needs I can design and make you pistons specifically for your build.
My designs use the same topography concept using as much of the combustion chamber as possible as squish area and keeping the dome as low as possible for the given requirements.
This is a 14:1 piston I designed. You will see the same basic design as OSTs but this piston was made for oversized valves and 296 cams. CP pistons told me I couldn't get 14:1 out of it but I did. :lol:
Image

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:53 am

Back to those of us running stock valve diameters.......... :D




One last bit.... the crown can be machined as much as .030" (.76mm). This will remove .9cc from the crown, dropping total crown volume down to 1.6cc. This will lower static compression by about 1/4 of a point.

So in an undecked block, under a 36cc chamber running a stock head gasket... these pistons can offer a static CR as low as 10.6 to 1. At the other extreme, with a decked block, small - 33cc -chambers, a stock gasket, and full crown(2.5cc) these pistons will deliver a static compression of 11.8 to 1.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby burdickjp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:55 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:with a decked block, small - 33cc -chambers, a stock gasket, and full crown(2.5cc) these pistons will deliver a static compression of 11.8 to 1.


Now we're having fun!

This makes me think about pulling the smallport head off my shelf and putting together a 16v with AE101 ITBs.
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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:14 pm

burdickjp wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:with a decked block, small - 33cc -chambers, a stock gasket, and full crown(2.5cc) these pistons will deliver a static compression of 11.8 to 1.


Now we're having fun!

This makes me think about pulling the smallport head off my shelf and putting together a 16v with AE101 ITBs.



If you dare... run the TRD .8mm gasket, and you can get static upto 12.4 :shock: ... :twisted:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:37 pm

You might want to find out how far JE offset the web between reliefs from the combustion chamber.
For example my pistons are about 1.4mm from the roof of the combustion chamber with a stock HG. This is a lot by squish area standards but if they shave the head the machined squish area doesn't change wheras the combustion chamber does. This means going to a .8mm HG would make the distance from piston to pentroof about 1mm. Still pretty safe. It does however mean that you could only shave about .3mm off the head before that distance starts to become a concern.

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:57 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:You might want to find out how far JE offset the web between reliefs from the combustion chamber.
For example my pistons are about 1.4mm from the roof of the combustion chamber with a stock HG. This is a lot by squish area standards but if they shave the head the machined squish area doesn't change wheras the combustion chamber does. This means going to a .8mm HG would make the distance from piston to pentroof about 1mm. Still pretty safe. It does however mean that you could only shave about .3mm off the head before that distance starts to become a concern.



:?:

In English.... so we all know what you are talking about??? Maybe use pictures????

The roof of the chamber is quad valve, pent roof.... At what point in the chamber are you speaking about????

The pistons design was based on the TRD slug found in the AE86 Group A manual. The head gasket will always provide a consistent piston gap to squish pads, in chambers as small as 33cc.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:23 am

So as you cut the head the machined surface that touches the block stays the same in reference to the piston however the area circled here that follows the contour of the combustion chamber will get closer to the surface of the combustion chamber as you machine the head down. It would be easier if I drew it up in a profile with the piston and combustion chamber but hopefully you can see what I am talking about.
As you machine the head the combustion chamber (pentroof inverted V) will move down causing the circled section between the reliefs to get closer to the head. Even though your machined squish area hasn't changed, If you machine too much off the head at some point the piston will hit the head.
At what point this happens depends on how far this area starts from the head.
Now since my pistons are made off of a model of the head I know how far they should be from the head. Of course I leave a bit of margin for error and part of that is the fact that the gap between the piston and the head is set perpendicular to the pentroof/piston angle so realistically there is more room than calculated because of the angle but because of that I know that on the vertical axis you could drop the head that ,7mm and know that it should be safe. If I have a customer who wants to drop the head more than that I would have to go back in and crunch numbers to see just how far the head could come down before it would risk hitting the head.
Image

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:49 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:So as you cut the head the machined surface that touches the block stays the same in reference to the piston however the area circled here that follows the contour of the combustion chamber will get closer to the surface of the combustion chamber as you machine the head down. It would be easier if I drew it up in a profile with the piston and combustion chamber but hopefully you can see what I am talking about.
As you machine the head the combustion chamber (pentroof inverted V) will move down causing the circled section between the reliefs to get closer to the head. Even though your machined squish area hasn't changed, If you machine too much off the head at some point the piston will hit the head.
At what point this happens depends on how far this area starts from the head.
Now since my pistons are made off of a model of the head I know how far they should be from the head. Of course I leave a bit of margin for error and part of that is the fact that the gap between the piston and the head is set perpendicular to the pentroof/piston angle so realistically there is more room than calculated because of the angle but because of that I know that on the vertical axis you could drop the head that ,7mm and know that it should be safe. If I have a customer who wants to drop the head more than that I would have to go back in and crunch numbers to see just how far the head could come down before it would risk hitting the head.
Image


AHHH... already answered.... in "head speak"

a 33 cc chamber is roughly at the point where the depth of the squish pads disappears... yellow line :ugeek:

Image


Additionally, the ramp on the crown is a bit shallower (about 4 degrees shallower) then the roof of the head.

As to my somewhat irritated response... a far simpler question would have been...


If the head is machined significantly, might the ramp of the piston crown hit, or interfere with the ramp of the combustion chamber??


Same thing... but everyone understands
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:49 am

I've had a few people...who need to keep under 1600cc... for competition purposes, ask me if these are available to fit an 81.25mm bore(81.25 x 77 = 1597cc).... so I sent an inquiry to JE Piston, these are also available in 81.25mm, at the same price!!


So bores available: 81mm, 81.25mm, 81.50mm, 82mm. Pins available: 18mm, 20mm (likely 19mm too - just not confirmed)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:03 am

UPDATE.......

I recently showed this thread to a racer friend of mine and he wasn't kind... asking me if I wanted my friends engines to perform less then perfectly(blow up)... I felt a little shocked, and pretty embarrassed (a bit angry too) and so I asked him what he meant....

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Image


this set of OST/JE pistons is ready for fitment





He then handed me a STOCK 4AGE piston and asked me to find it on my own..... (ignore the black, look for red)

Image


Not just MY pistons... but ALL aftermarket 4AG pistons suffer from this. Heat LOVES a sharp edge... a simple radius around the valve reliefs will not allow the heat to focus on a flaw and burn the piston.

So... for ALL aftermarket piston users... have your machine shop add a 1/4 round around the valve reliefs and your pistons will survive far longer under SEVERE loads.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:46 pm

from another forum wrote:Confused. I dont see how the red area having an extremely large 1/4inch round is going to make or break here... Sure, it's good and nice to have everything be unsharp...


I was debating with myself if it was necessary to include an amount. My apologies... the 1/4 round he was speaking of was somewhere between .030" and .040" (.75mm to 1mm). The stock piston is closer to .065" to .070" (1.6mm to 1.8mm). Much less than .030" isn't much of a 1/4 round. The photo was a bit of an exaggeration, but it was to offer a visual description.



from the same forum wrote:His friend was probably exaggerating a little to get his point across


The point being almost all custom pistons need a little work for best results

we as customers are thinking hey for that much money they better be ready to go but for a lot of items it just don't work that way




My friend knows that I've been hanging back (part development) in the 4AG world for a long time... he knows I want as perfect a part as I can possibly deliver... so he was digging at me for saying the piston above was ready.... when in his mind (and mine) it should have gotten more of a radius...

My embarrassment is everyone else's "free" lesson.


His was one of a few observation on the FSR skirts that caused me to have these built with full skirts.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:26 pm

Good news... Bad news.....

Good news, these pistons are basically fully customize-able now. Custom bore, custom compression height, any wrist pin you want....

Now the bad news... I can no longer sustain the price... cost now is $750.00 per set, PLUS freight
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby beyjer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:46 pm

Dan, I just emailed you about these :)

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby CFROST » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:52 pm

new price still sounds like a darn good price to me 8-)

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Re: OST and JE Piston collaborate - new piston!

Postby quietskaterguy » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:02 am

Another fantastic read, I Cannot thank Oldskewltoy or Yoshimitsuspeed enough. you guys always get the right information out of each other.
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