500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

jinx
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500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:41 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcGTYwzxQp0
countless 4AGE, BP, CA18, SR20, 4G63 stock cam dynos always shown the 4AGE way behind on power
Most stock cam 4AGE turbos seem to hit a wall just past ~320ish, from my observatoins
Why did so many powerful 4agte builds -waste- money on cams ?
what is so special about this 16V 7AGE turbo ? valve springs ? cam timing ?
interesting build/comments nevertheless

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:59 am

Well, it's a 1800cc 7AFE block with I guess a set of oversized map 4AgZE 8.9:1 pistons? ...... Stock 7AFE head gasket? ............. Early "bluetop 4AGE" cams? ........... Professionally machined head? ........ All of the above?

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:32 am

On the other hand: Turbo 4AGE Trueno with over 500whp, built engine, wild cams.


http://www.sdsefi.com/features/jan064ag.htm

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:47 pm

this one is more typical of numerous stock cam 4agte builds; http://www.sdsefi.com/features/aug03corolla.htm
315 hp with a T4 compressor @24-25psi. At 28psi only saw 321hp.... boost just builds up in the intake tract.
if the stock cam 16V head restricts a 1600cc like that, wouldn't it be worse on 1800cc ?

the owner of that blue hi powered 4AGTE corolla also posted details here of his previous more conventional 8000rpm 4AGTE
think he used 264/272 cams. 260-274 cams "uncorked" countless 4/7AGTE chasing 400hp & beyond

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:58 pm

Seems that most modifications that work on N.A. engines work on F.I. engines also.
So head work, cams and inlet/exhaust manifolds that improve V.E. will help the engine
make the same power with less boost or more power with the same boost. Adding 12.5%
more engine capacity will only increase power/torque by 12.5% if all other factors stay
the same.

But of course, all other factors don't stay the same. More air is trying to get thru the
same (or different) manifolds, the compression ratio may have changed, the bore/stroke
ratio has changed and the turbo is now operating in a different point on its map. It takes
a lot of experimentation to get the right combination. As mentioned above, when winding
the boost up makes not much difference to the output, then it is time to look for the
limiting factor/s and try and improve them.

Not sure if I mentioned it elsewhere, but I have exchanged a few messages with Kelford
Cams about their 193-T turbo cams, as down the line I wouldn't mind trying a set in my
s/c engine. I'm not looking for big power. But I would like to see if the cams help get
a bit more power at the same (modest) boost level I will be running. Kelford say that the
cams should move the whole power band up rather than moving peaks to the right as is
the case with cams in N.A. engines.

I like that plan better than just trying to drive the s/c faster with a smaller pulley.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:29 am

making 200+hp more than any other stock cam 16V 4/7AG, is off the grid
Stock cam bp, ca, sr, 4g, 3sg don't put up those sorts numbers. Why would anyone bother motor swapping
Every hi powered 4/7AGE all ran cams 16V or blacktop 20V head/stock cam. This 16v even surpasses all 20V/stock cam

now here is a stock cam 600hp 4g63 DSM. Wringing out a $200 holset hx35/12cm @40+psi. Valvesprimgs , short runner intake, port match. E85
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/holset ... hp.490819/
Perhaps his is a similar approach ?

i recall reading some excellent supercharger + camshaft builds. Some with before/after dyno torque overlays. Perfect!
if the info still there, that would be a better source imo. Cam vendor not going thru all that
It's like asking a turbo builder for his sizing recommendation. We gearheads r a more accurate far better real world source imo

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jdm86gtz » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:57 am

Subscribed.
What ever happened to this project? http://www.sdsefi.com/features/jan064ag.htm It ended up with a sleeved block and I think the last update was shimming the valves then maybe the forum crashed.

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:01 am

in 1st post... saw car on dyno... didn't see dyno results. Not sure I believe.......... but my believing isn't the point......


Biggest problem I see is the stock camshafts... remember our cams only lift to .295" (if using the "big" stock cams), that is rather small... and the valve lift is actually even smaller - with PERFECTLY set intake valves, the valve lift is .289, and the exhaust is even less...... In recent weeks I've been hanging around V8 head builders... and they laugh at me when I mention lifts of under .300"

2nd biggest problem is the valve seat to bowl mismatch, as I've shown on my flowbench, that alone adds substantial flow.... and finally opening up the exhaust can only help to move more exhaust gas, and lower the pumping losses.


Btw.... asking Barry Manon might be the quickest way to know more......
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:28 pm

Because... interesting :) I watched some of the other Rollachriz videos on his 7AGTE
and In one of them I hear him talking about putting 40-45psi of boost on the engine at
8000rpm. Pushing an engine built from mostly OEM components that hard is going to break
a few things along the way... hence mention of ARP bolts, crank girdle etc.

Boosted engines get more charge into the cylinders by increasing the charge density, so with
a little math and a lot of over simplified logic, I get this (assuming that a well prepared N.A.
1600cc 4AGE engine with stock cams can put 110hp to the ground)...

110hp x 4 (3 bar boost) = 440hp
440hp x 1.125 (for 1800cc) = 495hp
495 plus 5% for E85 and you have 520hp

Big over simplification, and many other factors to be considered, but what I am thinking is
that the inlet valves only have to flow 12.5% more volume than a stock N.A. engine. And that
should be possible with stock cams ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:22 pm

Rollachriz did mention the stock intake holding back ~400hp.... as other hi strung 4/7AGTEs have found

could it be old tired oem valve springs causing power to hit a brick wall, while 'stock' cams get the blame ?
all the additional pressure on the back of the valve, might have a huge affect ?

the DSM in the link is a bone stock 2.0 motor, with only proven quality 'race' springs. Very uncommon.
bolt-ons similar to this 7AG; short runner/plenum intake + ebay header + hacked oem ecu tuned + hi boost/big turbo
the mitsu; makes 600hp + revs to 8600 + sees 40psi - stock cams/stock cam gears - Amazing

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:54 am

Yusss... at 45psi you would want valve springs with a lot more seat pressure than stock
4AGE springs, and stock cams would handle the stiffer springs better than high lift cams.
From the various builds both N.A. and F.I. that have followed over the years, it seems
to be the guys who thinks stuff thru rather than just collect name parts and bolt them
on, that get the best results.

The selection of the turbo in and out bits is one of those voodoo arts that only a few people
truly master. The turbo needs to be working in its sweet spot (highest efficiency) and sized
to deliver the volume and pressure required without building excessive backpressure. The
turbo manifold needs to be designed to match the turbo and the intake manifold carefully
designed for low restriction and equal airflow to each cylinder. Headwork, especially on the
exhaust side, would be essential to run the big numbers.

And when all the pieces are assembled, the engine has to be tuned to run as close to the
ragged edge as possible. I believe that in the professional racecar industry, the process
of developing parts involves building them and seeing if they break. If they don't break
make them lighter. If they do break, make them stronger until you have the lightest part
that has the strength to do the job. I would guess that developing a 7AGTE to make 500
plus hp would be a bit like that :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:14 am

Thanks for posting about this. I haven't yet built an engine, but I've set ~300 HP at the wheels (AWD) as my goal. So far the only cams I've really considered are the matched 256 Cat Cams that OST recommended to me a while ago. Paired with OST's headwork, I think that would be sufficient, especially for a sometimes-daily driven wagon. Other than the Cat Cams, I previously considered just running with early bigport cams. I do have a set of new HKS valve springs, which I figured would be the right step up from using stock (used) springs.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jdm86gtz » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:01 pm

Not 4/7AGE but interesting nonetheless, RB has 86mm bore with a much shorter 73mm stroke
Pushing a stock RB26:
Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uypfBv ... kTpqjJY4ll
Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uZEMnB ... kTpqjJY4ll

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:01 pm

just as a what do you do.........

a 4AGE intake valve is 30.5mm in diameter and that calculates out to just a bit over 1 square inch of surface. So if you are running 45#s of boost, the spring should have a seat pressure of at least 77#s..... factory minimum spring rate(32) + add in the boost(45)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:22 pm

think just over 500hp was ~30ish psi boost, GT35R. Solid 435 ft-lbs tq too. E85
the 40-45psi boost was for yet another built 7AGTE with aftermarket cams, and big ARP studs as this head lifted ~550hp

the crank main bearing cap split, so tomei ladders were to be added.
Some advised to get a girdle instead, like hi rpm honda 4s do, because the tomeis only split with the cap(at a higher rpm tho)

still guessing and curious IF perf valvesprings allowed this stock cam 4/7AGTE to go well beyond the 'normal' 320ish
None of the numerous examples ran a turbo as big tho. The far better breathing hotside, could very well be the answer too
no confirmation on the springs, but something worth trying. Did wonders for that DSM, as stock 4Gs don't dyno like that
As the guy states, "u just gotta try stuff"..... but that's a time consuming and costly route, most won't take
Too many proven 200 - 500hp 4/7AGTE recipees out there. That covers alot of fun in a 2200 lb shitbox

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:41 pm

jinx wrote:
the crank main bearing cap split, so tomei ladders were to be added.
Some advised to get a girdle instead, like hi rpm honda 4s do, because the tomeis only split with the cap(at a higher rpm tho)



Some Atlantic builds use replacement caps made from higher grade steel, then use steel tie-ins across main #2, and #4
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:28 pm

over the top builds gonna be breakin stuff. Diehards suck it up... others will swap to a different powertrain

if hi rpms split main caps, set your 'beast mode' @ 7500 rpm upper via turbo size & cams

if a bigaz 61mm compressor, psi in the 30s... lifts the head, needing bigger ARP stud$$$.... Stay under that

during the turbo 4/7ag frenzy of a few years back, spun bearings were extremely common
After Rollachriz 6000-8500rpm blitz, oil temps soared, while pressure dropped. Quality 50wt cured his spun bearing episodes
He emphasized; this worked for his street car and he ran no oil cooler. Track duty is another story

4/7AG crank pulley failure is routine. I'd imagine the aftermaket alloy offerings addressed this ?
I can't recall if failure was due to old keys, incorrect bolt torque or it just comes with the territory of hi output/hi revs

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:39 pm

I was just looking back to see if I could find the dyno plot for this local build ...
Project: AW11 4agte, 410rwkw (555hp) on 26psi

But the car got sold and the image links are all dead now. I can see that the car had a
GT3076, aftermarket cams and oversize exhaust valves etc. So doesn't add anything re
stock cams. But what I find interesting is that made pretty good power on only 26psi.

Maybe stock cams are a bottleneck which has to be overcome with more psi ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:06 pm

Yep..... camshafts' job is to increase VE after all
didn't think a 55mm compressor could even move that amount of air @26psi
but that is only intake manifold gauge presure. Must be a really efficient combo.... & a monster!
Is that Ben's AW11 that used to be on uniqueautosports web page years ago ?
https://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=53428

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:28 am

This AW11 was built in Christchurch, NZ. Here are a couple of links that have a bit more info...
Build thread... http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic ... 29&t=61383
NB: The above link only works if you sign up for the forum... sorry bout dat.
Video of an earlier 511hp run... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsexX2KrzIQ
The 555hp run was done a couple of months later after a tweaking a few details on the engine.
Guy who tuned it is one of the top local tuners, so the owner would have had some good advice
when building the engine.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:33 am

did the 555whp aw11 ever drag strip ?

some folks make power for bragging rights, or push the envelope just out of curiosity

the red mr2 link, ran a 10.6 1/4 mile on drag radials, ~365hp atw iirc. That's pretty efficient
4agze + worked bigport head + stock na cams + custom intake + header + gt30 @ 25psi
power nowhere close to 555hp gt30 aw11(cams give 200hp? - lol).... or this stock na cam 526hp gt35 7agte
could it be that some dynos r happy, while others r stingy ?

a couple street ae86 4agte 10.9 1/4; t3/t4 @ ~24psi + 264-272 cams

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jondee86 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:33 pm

jinx wrote:did the 555whp aw11 ever drag strip ?

Nothing in the build thread about going to the strip with that tune. Looks like the last
time it went to the drags it was with the 511hp/28psi tune. Best time was 11.1 @ 125.5mph
on hooiser quicktime pros 26x9.5x15. This was a road car with a e51 trans and 4.3 ratio diff
so not really the hot setup for drags, and the owner was a novice drag racer.

Numbers were all run on a Dynapack hub dyno. I'd guess that the guy started building the engine
and then just wanted to see how far he could push it. Having that much power in a road car is
only going to get you in trouble, so I think he sold it to concentrate on building his Starlet. The
Starlet is a circuit car... started out with a built 4AGE silvertop and now has a 13b rotor.

I think the guy just likes building stuff :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:56 pm

Jinx, you do realize of course that the DSM 4g63 is a 2L engine versus our 1.6L/1.8L 4AGE/7AFE. Okay, and speaking of bigger engines.... The Tacoma's turbo 2RZFEs being used by the boricuas in dragracing still are for the most part stock-cammed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AoeYvixNk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzEKdzY_2uI

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:20 pm

u didn't read the thread. Topic has nothing to do with 1.6 vs 1.8 vs 2.0 whatsoever

there r two excellent RZ swapped street AE86 threads detailed on dorikaze;
one supercharged and the other turbocharged - stock, then cams added

the videos u posted....
I seriously doubt the RZ drag cars on that level r still gonna b fartin around with stock cams :roll:

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:28 am

Which why I said, for the most part stock-cammed. In fact, Paradise racing was one of them running low 8s with stock cams when they were campaining their old AE86.


So, I think to run single digits with a built engine running stock cams you must additionally have at least a short length big runner intake w/ a straight shot to the valves and header for the turbo.

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:55 pm

runing 8s while the rest of the pack in the 6s ?
all podium cars run aftermarket cams. Think a truck/SUV cam(designed for low-midrange tq) gonna cut it ?

"for the most part" RZs seemed best used in street rollas
bone stock 3RZ mustang dyno 560hp/570tq = enough juice to go crazy in a street AE86
FULL street TE rolla replaced its built 3T with a 2RZ. @26psi ran 9.8sec 1/4, 37mpg
I'd never touch those cams.... going up against no limit monsters, is another story

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:01 pm

jinx wrote:runing 8s while the rest of the pack in the 6s ?
all podium cars run aftermarket cams. Think a truck/SUV cam(designed for low-midrange tq) gonna cut it ?

going up against no limit monsters, is another story



Yerse!! You said it. Those are fully built and cammed race 2RZs, low rpm utility vehicle based engines, that can run 6s with the "big boys". But a stock cammed turbo 2/3RZ in a 2300# three quarter chassis car running in the low 8s is already a mighty contender.

And speaking of stock cammed 4AGs, I remember in the late nineties a Finnish racing team had build a 1971 Toyota Carina using a stock 4AGZE with stock "bluetop" cams that did low 10s on C16. What I can still recall is that they utilized a Holset turbo at 2.5bar, big 48mm Webers reworked blow-off valve, twin reworked wastegates, running 3"exhaust tubing through a muffler. Martelius or some brand like that. And when they tried 3bar boost,it ran once high 9 but all cylinders bowed into an oblong shape. But while the stock 4AGZE conn rods held up to the abuse, all of the stock Toyota piston rings were shattered.
Last edited by Gino1X1 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:02 pm

BTW
here's the link. high 9s in a 2400# car is already 500whp..... in the nineties.

http://www.proturbo.fi/gallery/carina.htm

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby jinx » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:28 pm

didn't remember reading of that carina waaaay back

poor little 4AG.... the mean things people have done to it. - lol :lol:

so bluetop cams don't 'choke a 4agte'.... at least not when a big turbo is shoving big boost down it's throat

thankfully, a "fast" street car is as far as my interest goes. Definitely ain't tryin to blaze any trails
bolt-ons to max out a gze. Then 7A & maybe M90 beyond the sc12 (blowthru like RollaPat's)
Turbocharged; nothing past a truty old classic 50trim t3/t4 ~15psi daily, 25-30 on kill
pump + meth/alky inj, standalone tuned of course - target = a robust & broad tq curve as possible. ~7500 redline
Hopefully no spun bearings, split main caps, lifted cyl heads

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Re: 500+ hp on stock bluetop cams?

Postby Gino1X1 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:03 pm

Haha yeah mean things. But looking way back in the seventies and early eighties, at the top Stock classes in dragracing. They were using "cheater cams" in otherwise OEM stock/blueprinted engines, you know OEM factory cam working with crazy durations leaving lift stock. So, who's to say for example they did or not reprofile/regrind their stock bluetop OEM cams....?

A good street engine that was "economical" and relatively strong and few people tried in those days was the turbo 2AGE combo in a KP60 Starlet. So, a 2A (1300cc) block, a bluetop 4AGE head, we used old Solex side draughts off an old 18RG, DSM blow off valve and intercooler and a .48 T3turbo for a blow through set up. It was good for 180~190whp judging by the 88~91mph trapspeed..... Yeah, little gas guzzler but WTH right?

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