4age on bike carbs

mr2mk1hero
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4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:08 am

My engine got the knocky rods. Want to do something entertaining with the new one I'm building. Thinking about bike carbs from a kawasaki zx6r. Should be fine with my mild cams. I know many people think carbs are not a smart mod etc. need constant fiddling and adjustments etc. I agree with all that, but I want the carb experience under my belt as well. My car is a 1987 mr2.


I'm in the possession of a early bigport (bluetop) map sesnored, non-egr ecu, dizzy, wiring harness, etc. from an at160 european celica. I have all the parts except the map sensor, which I am having a lot of trouble finding. Will any toyota 1 bar map sensor work? Any known Toyota I can get this off?

For now I want to run the bike carbs with the stock ecu. Will get msd or some other standalone ignition later.

I'm thinking about how to connect this.

There are three sensors on the intake manifold:
1. MAP - Is MAP the same as AFM in the sense that the engine will not start without a signal from it? Can I hook it up to the carb intake manifold that I will get fabricated. I think I will need the vacuum balancing thing for this.

2. Intake air temperature sensor. Do I need to plug this too into the carb intake manifold somehow as well? Or can I ignore it?

3. TPS. How will the ECU behave without a TPS connection?

The other thing is the fuel. Here I'm thinking about getting the tank out and removing the efi fuel pump and installing a fuel pump from the same bike that I get the carbs from. Any better suggestions for this that don't involve a million fuel lines and fuel pressure regulators and what not?

------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a big update to the thread. I got all the main parts so here's some picture and information:
My engine has failed. I now know why, and the reason is super lame. My engine failed because I sandblasted my engine block and my diy washing was not enough to get all the blasting media out. Laaaame. So life has given me lemons, and I have a personal moto for situations like this. When life gives you lemons…you make a 4age powered by motorcycle carbs!

I recently rebuilt my engine and I’m really not in the mood to rebuild it again and do everything the same way the first time round. It’s too soon. So I decided to use this failure as an opportunity to do something entertaining. After a bit of research I decided to do a bike carb conversion to my 4age engine. Why? I never drove a carbed engine, and I want that experience for some reason. Carbs sound amazing on a 4age. It will look cool. MPG will suffer, I don't care this is not my daily.

I plan to do it using the stock ECU, but not a stock AFM ECU because that is impossible. I plan to get a MAP ECU, a MAP harness and a MAP sensor along with 4 taps in each of my bike carb intake manifolds that will then lead to a vacuum balancing bar and then to the MAP sensor. This is the only way to reliably ensure a stable signal to the MAP sensor. I plan to go with a standalone ignition controller later on.

Fuel will be supplied via a motorcycle fuel pump. That means I will need to drop the fuel tank (this is the job I am most afraid of), remove the stock fuel pump and install a bike fuel pump. Why? The stock fuel pump runs at 37 psi I think, the carbs need like 3-5 psi. The other option is getting a fuel pressure regulator, more hoses, gauges, etc. I prefer the simplicity and reliability of an easily replacable bike fuel pump that's also really cheap and readily available. After putting it all together and starting it up tuning will be done using an AEM x-series wideband air fuel ratio gauge.

Here are the parts:
I got a complete bike carb conversion kit from a company in the UK called DanST engineering that specialized in bike carb conversions. I initially thought about doing the whole thing DIY, you know sourcing a set of bike carbs from a junkyard, welding up a manifold myself, etc. But after I considered the time and patience I will need for all of that I decided to drop the DIY route for once and get things that are professionally made, look right and are compatible with everything else. Here's some pictures.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

In the pictures you can see the complete kit. The carbs are 37mm HondaCBR600 Keihin carbs. Many people use Yamaha R1 carbs but apparently these smaller ones are actually better for the 1.6 4AGE. The intake manifold is tig welded aluminum and looks amazing imo. The kit also contains a bike fuel pump, it's nothing special but it will work and be super easy to replace if needed. Supplied it also a intake manifold gasket, fluoro line silicone hoses that won't deteriorate in contact with fuel and the vacuum balancing bar. The kit is definitely a high quality product and I am super pleased with it. It's also super convenient that the carbs come ultrasonically cleaned and with approximate jetting so you can at least start the car and get the carbs tuned. Only thing I can complain about is the sillicone hoses and the clamps for them. The hoses could be a bigger diamtere because installation was a bit of a pain, and the clamps should be smaller, so there isn't any overhand and it looks
perfect.
Here's an unboxing video:
https://youtu.be/HTZ9xo1LVEA

Thinking ahead I also got a lightweight crank pulley and some injector plugs from Techno toy tuning. The crank pulley is the thinking ahead part because it will make it easy to setup a crank position sensor for a standalone ignitionc controller later on. Plus it looks cool and should remove a bit of the rotational mass to make the engine spin more freely. I know there's a whole debate about lightweight crank pulleys and how they allegedly destroy engines. That debate will never be put rest and I would not like to start it here. I decided to call my installation of lightweight crank pulley an experiment that may eventually contribute to putting the debate to rest? if the engine fails I hope there will be proof that the pulley is culprit. The injector plugs are a nice solution to the holes left after removing the injectors. I think interference fit freeze plugs are stupid for this and prefer the safety and simplicity of these plugs.

Here's some pictures:
Image
Image

Here's an unboxing video:
https://youtu.be/Oc9AaPe9RMw
https://youtu.be/nykRt6dav7s

Another piece of the puzzle is the AEM x-series air fuel ratio gauge. A no-brainer for me considering AEM's R&D, reputation and the fastest response at this price range.
Here's a picture of the gauge:
Image

And some more unboxing:
https://youtu.be/6_PWA4DhFkk

Here's my blog post about the whole conversion with a few more details and links to the products: http://www.driving4answers.com/bike-carb-conversion/

So, that's the plan and the parts. I have already bought new crank and conrod bearings, 0.25 O/S for my new rebuild and have ground down the crank 0.25. New aisin oil pump is on it's way. Nothing else has been seriously damaged. Will replace some seals out of pre-caution.

When I put the engine together it will be time to install the AEM gauge and drop the tank to do the fuel pump business. What are the best practices for installing the gauge in case of the AW11? Which is the best way to route the wires and connect the gauge harness to the car?
Any good tips for dropping the tank. I am super afraid of that disgusting job.

I hope this will be a fun one
Last edited by mr2mk1hero on Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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frostvectron
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby frostvectron » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:14 am

Stock ecu? Not going to work.

No tps? No map?

http://jalopnik.com/how-electronic-fuel ... -499902815

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby Jayrdee » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:58 am

I think you need a refresher on how carb setup works ... you don't use the ECU with carburetors haha

Here are some links I've found useful.

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076
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mr2mk1hero
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:26 am

Jayrdee wrote:I think you need a refresher on how carb setup works ... you don't use the ECU with carburetors haha

Here are some links I've found useful.

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076



Read this thread. Both links are to the same thread. In this thread the guy uses an MSD standalone ignition controller. I'm not using that so it's different.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
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mr2mk1hero
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:28 am

frostvectron wrote:Stock ecu? Not going to work.

No tps? No map?

http://jalopnik.com/how-electronic-fuel ... -499902815


Did you even read what I wrote?
I'm asking how to connect the MAP, TPS, and intake air temp sensor to the bike carb intake manifold so they work with the stock ECU.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby Jayrdee » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:33 am

mr2mk1hero wrote:
Jayrdee wrote:I think you need a refresher on how carb setup works ... you don't use the ECU with carburetors haha

Here are some links I've found useful.

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076

http://www.club4ag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4076



Read this thread. Both links are to the same thread. In this thread the guy uses an MSD standalone ignition controller. I'm not using that so it's different.


mr2mk1hero wrote:
frostvectron wrote:Stock ecu? Not going to work.

No tps? No map?

http://jalopnik.com/how-electronic-fuel ... -499902815


Did you even read what I wrote?
I'm asking how to connect the MAP, TPS, and intake air temp sensor to the bike carb intake manifold so they work with the stock ECU.




Lol once again, I think you need a refresher on how carburetors work.

The whole point of carburetors is to get rid of EFI and your ECU. The carburetor(s) are what mix the air/fuel together, replacing your fuel injectors. I am fully aware that the dude in the thread I posted uses the MSD. Your ECU uses your MAP and TPS to determine how much fuel to inject into your cylinders, but your carburetor will be doing that so ..............

btw, this is the other link I meant to post.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120508012619/http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=359

These are good ones too
http://club4ag.com/tech-data/carburetors-for-the-4a-ge/
http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechPages/techpages/carb3.html


Are you sure you aren't getting individual throttle bodies confused with carburetors?
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:15 am

This is something I have thought about before... why not use the factory ECU for
IGNITION ONLY when an engine is converted to carbs ??

Basically it just amounts to removing the injector wiring and providing an alternative
method of supplying fuel to the engine. The ECU does not monitor the injectors so it
will not know that they have gone, and stay happy just clicking its transistors.

It will be necessary to hook up a TPS or apply a fixed resistor to keep the ECU in "run"
mode. May have some small effect on idle quality, so maybe a resistor and an idle switch.
The IAT sensor can be mounted anywhere that it can sense the temperature of the air
reaching the carbs.

The MAP sensor is necessary to provide the load axis for the ignition map. Any MAP
sensor from 80's or 90's Toyota should work... just check that the output voltage is
in line with the test values in the FSM. Tapping all four throttles and averaging the
vacuum reading with a small reservoir, then using a pulsation damper in the line to
the MAP sensor, will work best.

The ECU will get the rpm and crank position signals from the distributor and ignition
will be sequential via the OEM coil, igniter and HT wiring. Never got round to doing
it myself, but I'd love to see it done :D

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:46 am

jondee86 wrote:This is something I have thought about before... why not use the factory ECU for
IGNITION ONLY when an engine is converted to carbs ??

Basically it just amounts to removing the injector wiring and providing an alternative
method of supplying fuel to the engine. The ECU does not monitor the injectors so it
will not know that they have gone, and stay happy just clicking its transistors.

It will be necessary to hook up a TPS or apply a fixed resistor to keep the ECU in "run"
mode. May have some small effect on idle quality, so maybe a resistor and an idle switch.
The IAT sensor can be mounted anywhere that it can sense the temperature of the air
reaching the carbs.

The MAP sensor is necessary to provide the load axis for the ignition map. Any MAP
sensor from 80's or 90's Toyota should work... just check that the output voltage is
in line with the test values in the FSM. Tapping all four throttles and averaging the
vacuum reading with a small reservoir, then using a pulsation damper in the line to
the MAP sensor, will work best.

The ECU will get the rpm and crank position signals from the distributor and ignition
will be sequential via the OEM coil, igniter and HT wiring. Never got round to doing
it myself, but I'd love to see it done :D

Cheers... jondee86


Thank you jondee86! Yours was a reply I was hoping to see. I'm really happy you're interested in this. I am really keen on getting this to work.

The only part I'm still kinda confused is the TPS. I was naive enough to think that the ECU only needs it for the injectors and that I can just ignore it. So now the most ghetto solution possible would be to fit the ECU, move it to any open throttle position and fix it in that position somehow.

I'm kinda crappy with electronics, so how would the idle switch and fixed resistor thing work, where to get them and how to hook them up?. Would it make sense to look for bike carbs that already have a tps on them?
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:56 am

mistake double post
Last edited by mr2mk1hero on Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:30 am

The TPS is a variable resistor which tells the ECU the throttle position and the rate
of change. The latter is used for an accelerator pump function which will no longer
be available. The former is most likely used to apply corrections to the ignition timing
to help the engine accelerate. Being able to attach a TPS to the accelerator linkage
somewhere would be the best solultion.

There is also a circuit in the TPS that goes open (like a switch) when the throttle plate
goes fully closed. This tells the ECU to adjust fuel (function no longer available) and
ignition timing for best idle. If a TPS is not possible some experimentation with a
fixed resistance (or variable poyentiometer) could find a suitable compromise setting.
Timing would still vary with rpm as usual. Again, a small switch hooked up to the
throttle linkage somewhere could simulate the idle switch operation. I'd have to check
to see if not having a TPS causes the ECU to throw a fault and go into limp mode.

A TPS is more or less something that is only used with EFI, so you are not likely to
find one on a bike with carbs. But it may be possible to adapt one, and google will
find you examples of how it has been done. You will need to visited a friendly bike
repair shop and look at a few setups on EFI bikes to see how it is usually done.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:09 am

Some of the late 90s bike carbs actually do have TPS. I have no idea why but they do. For example 1999 kawasaki zx6r carbs already have a tps on them. The question is whether it can be made to work with our stock ECU. Will probably have to buy a set of those carbs or at least a tps from them to know. This is definitely going to be fun :)

So on the intake manifold I just need 1 tap on each runner for the vacuum to the vacuum canister and then to MAP. Don't need to tap the intake manifold for anything else?
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:06 am

Probably had the TPS as an input to an electronic ignition box. Electronics is not my
strong suit either. But I would think that it should be possible to adapt a bike TPS by
adding a small resistor in series to scale the output to suit the 4AGE ECU.

You will need to tap one (or preferably two) of the throttles to get some vacuum for
your brake servo, They will be approx 5mm dia and teed together. The MAP sensor
tappings can be small... 2mm or so, and all four run into a small reservoir, say 20 dia
by 150 long. In-line pulsation dampers can be found (small plastic hollow plastic discs
with a vacuum tit on each face) can be found on many different cars.

The gas on bikes is usually gavity fed, but you will need a low pressure pump and
regulator. Say a pump delivering 4-5 psi and a regulator to give 2 psi to the carbs.
And carbs are usually attached to the bike engine by flexible rubber couplers and
clamps, so you will need to study both how to build your manifold and what you need
to do to get the carbs spaced to more or less match the port spacing on the 4AGE
head (saves having to extend the spindle linkages between the carbs).

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby Jayrdee » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:40 am

Wait ... What? Lol.

In theory this makes sense, I'd be very interested to see how this plays out. Especially toying with the TPS and MAP sensor(s).

I've never seen/heard this being done before?!
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:43 pm

I am glad that I have been able to find this forum thread again. It is from another
site but essentially mimics a long running thread that seems to have disappeared
(unfortunately) from this site :(

http://www.aeu86.org/forum/Thread-CARBU ... rt-16V-4AG

That thread will save me a lot of writing :D It covers not only how to go about
using the factory ECU for ignition only control with carbs, but the also the very
good reason for doing so. ECU control of timing is a big step up from any other
method that only provides fixed timing or a single programmable timing curve.
All the reuired components are already in the car and it just takes a bit of ingenuity
to get the MAP and TPS working with the carbs.

Of course, a fully programmable after market ECU is an even better solution,
but not everyone wants to face up to the cost and work involved in that upgrade.
Using the factory ECU is a good DIY alternative that provides reliable electronic
control of advance for minimal cost.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby ditn » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:01 am

using stock ecu with carbs is a good idea.
much better like said than msd or fixed.

i remember a friend used axle for opening valves carbs to attach his tps.
so he basicly used that with a lever to make his own tps.
if i go there ill take a picture worked like a charm

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby fiveten » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:47 am

I'm selling an MSD 6AL 2 with complete plug and play for a carb'd 4AG. PM me if you're interested. Reason for selling is because I went ITBs.

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:54 am

Gonna bump this because I did a huge update on the opening post. I decided to do it in the opening post because I think the thread might become long and I want to keep the important info up there. Hope that's ok
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby nyberrg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:52 pm

Hey! What parts did you get in the carburetor kit and what parts did you buy separately? Is the vacuum distributor thingie part of the kit? I'm gonna do the same conversion on my Carina, just need to set up a budget :lol:

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:29 am

nyberrg wrote:Hey! What parts did you get in the carburetor kit and what parts did you buy separately? Is the vacuum distributor thingie part of the kit? I'm gonna do the same conversion on my Carina, just need to set up a budget :lol:


Sorry I'm replying so late.
The kit comes with the intake manifold, the gasket, the carbs and the silicon hoses and hose clamps.

On top of this, I also ordered the vacuum canister, asked for two taps for a brake booster (that was free), ordered the fuel pump, the pipercross filter and the adapter plate for the filter. :)
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:21 am

I am back and I bring you the funk!
https://youtu.be/daqmPnEYMfk

I also bring you some pictures of the newest iteration of my pride and joy: (this forum refuses to pick up my images. Works with zero issues on other forums, so club4ag gets links, sorry)
http://www.driving4answers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DSC_0123.jpg
http://www.driving4answers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DSC_0129.jpg
http://www.driving4answers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DSC_0065.jpg

So there have been some changes in the plan and a few new things.

Biggest change is that I am droping the stock ecu for ignition. I'm kinda sad (and I apologize to jondee86) but I just couldn't resist getting a 3d tuneable standalone ignition ECU. I went with NODIZ pro (unboxing video coming soon, you can see the unit itself at the end of the engine rebuild video). I decided to go with NODIZ instead of the usual Megajolt since nodiz doesn't need an EDIS module and you can get it with a really nice wiring harness. All it needs is a crank position sensor (I am making a bracket already) and a throttle position sensor (I got carbs with one of those) and voila 3d ignition maps and razor sharp throttle response.

Another new thing is that I got a cambelt stabiliser from Manon racing product from New Zealand (so I got USA, UK and now NZ parts on this engine lol). My engine isn't really extreme enough for the cambelt stabiliser but I had some annoying timing belt skipping issues in the past so I got it.Here's a little video about the cambelt stabiliser. https://youtu.be/X29mIj9JXKM

So, what's next? Within the the next few weeks I will be installing the clutch and the transmission and putting the engine back into the MR2. I will then hook up my AEM afr gauge, the NODIZ ignition and everything else and fire it up. After this it will be a matter of fine tuning and hopefully smiling while listening to the glorious soundtrack of my 4age. Stay tuned!
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jondee86 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:41 pm

Looking good :) And programmable ignition with a 36-1 wheel on the crank
is always going to be a superior option, especially if you have a modified engine.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby kakico » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:48 pm

would like see how are you planning to hold the magnetic sensor, to feed the NODIZ
thanks

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Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:54 am

kakico wrote:would like see how are you planning to hold the magnetic sensor, to feed the NODIZ
thanks


It's being made right now.

Here's what I did. I took my old busted oil pump and installed it along with a gasket and a busted crankshaft on an old junkyard block I had sitting around. I then Installed my T3 pulley and trigger wheel. What I had was essentially a mock up of my engine.

I then took that to a machine shop along with the crankshaft position sensor and asked them to make a bracket out of aluminum that will hold the sensor 0.2-0.5 mm away from the teeth of the trigger wheel. The bracket will bolt into the two outermost oil pump bolt holes on the exhaust half of the oil pump. I first thought about bolting it in on the intake side of the oil pump but there are clearance issues there with alternator belt and the water pump pulley, it can be done but exhaust side seems to be easier.

I'll post pictures as soon as it's made.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

kakico
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:24 pm

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby kakico » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:49 am

Thanks
yes , will be interesting, Techo they sell the wheel, but they get short on not providing a solution for the sensor.
others provide the solution, but are only applicable for the own sensor/wheel

Good job on your videos

mr2mk1hero
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:40 am

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:36 am

So today I decided to hack up my wiring harness. I realized that I can have a very nice and clean engine bay by amputating a lot of the connectors from the wiring harness, since I won't need most of them anymore, considering my fuel supply will be handled by the bike carbs and my ignition by the nodiz pro standalone ecu, which needs like 3-4 connections.

So as I tore apart at the harness questions started popping up. Any help on any of these will be much appreciated.

1. I know the ignition coil provides the signal to the tachometer, but which wire is it? I need to connect this wire to the output on the NODIZ to have my tacho working.

2. There are three wires going from the alternator. 2 of those go to the ECU. What do they do? Can I cut them, since I want to completely eliminate the stock ECU and all of it's wires.

3. I want to use the stock air temperature sensor, i.e. the cooling fan temperature sensor to power the cooling fan. Any way I can connect the wires from the sensor to the cooling fan to have it working without using the stock ecu at all?

4. I see that the efi water temperature switch sensor and the cold start injector time switch are for some reason connected to the smaller connector for the starter. Why is this?

5. Anything else I should be careful of when amputating the stock ecu and associated wiring?

Thanks a lot in advance I really appreciate it!
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

jdm86gtz
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:13 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jdm86gtz » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:46 am

1. The tacho signal comes from the igniter (black wire with red rings in an AE86) it is also in the diagnosis connector as IG- if you trace this wire inside the car you can find where to connect your new ecu output to it. Also you may need to use a tacho adapter between your ecu and the rev clock, there is a hack of using a gutted relay for this or you can buy tacho adapters.
2. The alternator wires as IG, L and S. So that is Ignition live, Dash light and Sense. These wires will be in the engine harness but not connected to the engine ecu.
3. Not sure but again I'd assume that the engine fan switch is not connected to the engine ecu
4. The EFi temp sensor(white wire to ecu and brown to sensor ground in ecu) is not connected to the starter solenoid wire but the cold start switch is as it is designed to give extra fuel during a cold start
5. All you really need to remove is the injector wiring, distributor wiring and cold start injector wiring.

Have you a spare loom in case you want to go back to efi

mr2mk1hero
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:40 am

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:08 am

jdm86gtz wrote:1. The tacho signal comes from the igniter (black wire with red rings in an AE86) it is also in the diagnosis connector as IG- if you trace this wire inside the car you can find where to connect your new ecu output to it. Also you may need to use a tacho adapter between your ecu and the rev clock, there is a hack of using a gutted relay for this or you can buy tacho adapters.
2. The alternator wires as IG, L and S. So that is Ignition live, Dash light and Sense. These wires will be in the engine harness but not connected to the engine ecu.
3. Not sure but again I'd assume that the engine fan switch is not connected to the engine ecu
4. The EFi temp sensor(white wire to ecu and brown to sensor ground in ecu) is not connected to the starter solenoid wire but the cold start switch is as it is designed to give extra fuel during a cold start
5. All you really need to remove is the injector wiring, distributor wiring and cold start injector wiring.

Have you a spare loom in case you want to go back to efi


Thanks so much for this. It really helped me out. You're right the alternator wires didn't go to the ECU, they did go through that big grommet in the trunk (my car is an aw11 mr2) but ended up in the Cooling fan control module, which i totally forgot about. So I killed two birds with one stone, I solved the alternator issue and figured out how to keep the coolant fan running.

I also noticed a circuit open relay next to the ECU, a bunch of wires go into it as well. Can I get rid of those too?
I have an entire spare loom, which is why I am hacking up this one so blatantly :)
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

jdm86gtz
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:13 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jdm86gtz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:17 am

You will need a fuel pump so you will need a relay so you might as well keep the Circuit Opening Relay (COR)
It has 5 wires but you will only need 3, I don't know AW11 wire colours but they may be similar to an AE86.

Black and Red is ignition positive, equivalent to pin 30 and 85 combined.
Black and Blue is feed to the pump, equivalent to pin 87
Green and Red is the relay trigger, equivalent to pin 86
Black and White is connected to the starter solenoid wire to prime fuel pump when cranking.
White and black is an earth for the starter solenoid side of the relay.

Use the Green and Red to whatever way you wish to trigger the pump. This needs to be earthed to trigger the pump.
Remove the White and Black wire and that will disable the start prime side of the relay. You can use a small pick to pop the pin out of the connector so you can always return it to stock in the future.

mr2mk1hero
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:40 am

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:55 am

jdm86gtz wrote:You will need a fuel pump so you will need a relay so you might as well keep the Circuit Opening Relay (COR)
It has 5 wires but you will only need 3, I don't know AW11 wire colours but they may be similar to an AE86.

Black and Red is ignition positive, equivalent to pin 30 and 85 combined.
Black and Blue is feed to the pump, equivalent to pin 87
Green and Red is the relay trigger, equivalent to pin 86
Black and White is connected to the starter solenoid wire to prime fuel pump when cranking.
White and black is an earth for the starter solenoid side of the relay.

Use the Green and Red to whatever way you wish to trigger the pump. This needs to be earthed to trigger the pump.
Remove the White and Black wire and that will disable the start prime side of the relay. You can use a small pick to pop the pin out of the connector so you can always return it to stock in the future.


Thanks a lot man. I really appreciate it. But I am really terrible with electronics and I apologize for that, so I will just need you to dumb down this a bit for me. Again, sorry and thank you.

What I will use is a out-of-tank motorcycle pump that just needs power and ground. My idea was to connect it to the same wires that power the stock in-tank-pump. To have that work I assume I will need to make the COR connections you mentioned above. I think the wire colors are most likely the same, because the tacho signal ignition wire was just as you described it.

Now the green and red needs to be connected to whatever I wish to trigger the pump. What would you connect it to?
Can I connect the black and blue directly to my pump to power it?
I don't get the earthing part, should I just take the white and black wire and bolt it somewhere onto the chassis? Or does something else needs to be earthed.
Why should disable the start prime side of the relay? Isn't priming the fuel pump when cranking good?

I feel these are really simple questions but please bear with me just a bit more as I'm almost done :) Imagine you're explaining things to a chimp.
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwosUn ... xtqkNJ3Fbg
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Heaps of 4A-GE and MR2 mk1 aw11 content on both.

jdm86gtz
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:13 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: 4age on bike carbs

Postby jdm86gtz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm

You can connect your new pump to the original wiring at the tank.
If you decide to connect the Green and Red wire to a dash switch with the other side of the switch connected to ground that will work fine but from a safety point of view in an accident the fuel pump will keep pumping unless you consciously switch off the pump. It could well be how most people do it.

The COR is a double switched relay for the fuel pump: when you turn the key to START the Black and White wire goes live and energizes the relay and the pump works, when the ecu reads over a certain rpm (say 350rpm for example) the ecu grounds the Green and Red wire (pin FC in the ecu) and by this time the engine is running by itself so you will release the key from START and the ecu controls the COR until you switch off the ignition or the engine rpm drops below 350rpm (again not sure on the exact rpm, this is an example)

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