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Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:29 am
by dr.occa
i found this list, even includes factory part numbers for a trigger wheel, pick up sensor and what not, may be helpful.

(p.s. dont even bother calling a toyota dealer for these or trdusa for that matter(already tried) you would have to call toyota of japan directly)


General:

Cylinder Firing Order: 1-3-4-2
Engine Bore: 81mm (3.189")
Engine Stroke: 77mm (3.031")
Oil Viscosity: 40 or 50 weight, depending on air temperature
Fuel Octane Rating: 108 prefered
Operating Oil Temperature: 200º-230º F, above 230º there is power loss
Operating Water Temperaure: 180º-200º F
Oil Pump Operating Pressure: 80-90 lbs
Spark Plug: Champion C55C or C57C
Compression Ratio: 12.7:1 maximum
Intake Camshaft Timing: 102º Lobe Center
Exhaust Camshaft Timing: 102º Lobe Center
Intake Valve Lash (cold): .012"
Exhaust valve Lash (cold): .013"
Ignition Timing: 28º BTDC @ 2,000rpm

Clearances'

Valve Lifter to Bore: .0005" - .0028"
Camshaft Journal: .0014" - .0028"
Piston Ring Gap (#1): .016" - .018"
(#2): .015" - .017"
Piston to Cylinder Wall: .0045" - 0050"
Wrist Pin Diameter: 19mm (.7480")
Wrist Pin: .0006" - .0015"
Main Bearing: .0020" - .0028"
Thrust Bearing: .003: - .006"
Con Rod Large End Diameter: 1.7726" - 1.7716"
Con Rod Bearing: .0025" - .0030"
Con Rod Side: .008" - .012"
Crankshaft Nose Diameter: .9842" - .9834"
Crankshaft Main Journal Diameter: 1.8897" - 1.8892"
Crankshaft Con Rod Journal Diameter: 1.6525" - 1.6520"
Pilot Bushing ID: .678" - .676"
Input Shaft Diameter: .669" - .668"
Cylinder Head Flatness: Within .001"
Valve Spring Height (installed): 1.425" - 1.398"
Valve spring Pressure (installed): 50 psi @ installed height
Final Combustion Chamber Volume: 33.9 cc minimum per cylinder, including Cylinder Head Gasket.

Bolt Torque Specs

Crankshaft Front Pulley: 60ft/lbs
Camshaft Pulley: 35 ft/lbs
Idler Pulley: 27 ft/lbs
Crankshaft Main Bearing: 47 ft/lbs
Cylinder Head: 43 ft/lbs
Flywheel: 85 ft/lbs
Connecting Rod: 45 ft/lbs

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Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:12 pm
by Omni86
..............Very much appreciated.

Chiltons/Haynes...not so much. :arrow: :evil:

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:32 am
by chohdog
Toyota of Japan wouldn't know what to do with those numbers either. Those parts are sourced from all USA distributors/manufacturers except maybe the engine bearings. You'd have to contact a Formula Atlantic engine supplier like Hasselgren or Lyonings. You shouldn't bother them unless you're willing to spend 15k anyways.

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:38 am
by oldeskewltoy
chohdog wrote: You shouldn't bother them unless you're willing to spend 15k anyways.


I can't speak about Hasselgren... but Loynings will build all kinds of engines... and you don't have to spend $15,000. I only spent $2600 with them for my engine. :twisted:

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:01 am
by gaijin_rokurunner
Quick Silver Racing also built Formula atlantic engine and still does on occasion, I spent 5g having them build my engine to FA spec minus the dry sump and that included alot of custom work and dyno tuning. Hasselgren seems to be the only one who charges you big money and my experience with them is they are pretty sloppy....I bout some re-bushed FA rods from them and the damn copper rings were all sized off center, wrong pin sizes and one could be pushed right out of rod....first and last time i ever deal with them if thats the attention to detail they give to their service.

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:20 am
by dr.occa
^ Umm, that's really disappointing to hear about Hasselgren. :|

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:19 am
by oldeskewltoy
Tony... Loynings has 27 SCCA titles to their credit(along with a few Bonneville records)... what kind of recorded success does Quick Silver have??

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:20 pm
by gaijin_rokurunner
Not sure will find out exact titles tomorrow but right now they they are the premier formula honda engine builders in the USA one of the top formula ford z-tec builders along with Justice Race engines who's owner was quicksilvers first employee back in the 70s. Also QRE was the premier 4-cylinder engine builder for SCCA FF1600 and FF2000, as well as the CART Toyota Atlantic Road Racing Series with their engines dominating the SCCA and USAC Pro F2000 Series for 10 straight years. Sandy never raced and the shop I dont think had a race car they just built team engines and provided track side support like they do now.

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:18 pm
by gaijin_rokurunner
Spoke with Sandy and Erik yesterday and they said overall titles they have more then Loyning but in specific classes Loyning probably has more. Reason is in the 90s QRE stopped messing with Atlantic it was to expensive and the Ztec was more profitable so they were out of alot of the series and only building for one or two. Additionally QRE and Loyning are two different shops, Loyning has a lot more capital in their company and employees as well as builds race cars, QRE never built race cars only engines and only has 4 employees well 5 if you count the guy who breaks down the engines and cleans the parts. Sandy did say Arnie has more experience with 4ages though because he stays in that class when Sandy called it quits. Now that doesnt mean he builds a better engine they all are about the same it really boils down to drivers race teams to make all thier engines winners. Sandy did say there are discrepencies between thier dyno, loyning and hasselgren apparently those west coast shops dyno read 10-15 hp more then QRE apparently some east coast racers bought crate motors from loyning and hasselgren with dyno sheets and they have put them fresh on QREs dyno and the numbers dont match up...could just be different types of dynos used. Anyhow they all have pro series titles so u cant go wrong using any of them. I know if my engine makes 250hp or better QRE will have the title of having built the highest hp N/A 4ag ever

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:58 am
by oldeskewltoy
gaijin_rokurunner wrote: I know if my engine makes 250hp or better QRE will have the title of having built the highest hp N/A 4ag ever


not to be picky.... :D Yours isn't a 4AGE....(83x83)....

I was @ Arnie's shop when they had a "special" 4AGE (standard bore and stroke) on their engine dyno. Special = means an induction length approaching 30" LONG with barrel throttles, and gantry injection... it planted 263hp @ under 10000 rpm(9600 to be precise) :twisted:

Loynings is 8 employees... so not a huge shop either.... They do build a few cars... mostly Atlantic based - CSR Viking


I dug up this "stitched together" photo I took in their chassis dyno room last year (cell phone couldn't get them all in in one shot).... interesting mix of competition cars.......
Image

Hmmm right side got a bit "edited by the forum"... to see the whole photo... http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j143/ ... 3baf0b.jpg

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:51 am
by gaijin_rokurunner
I beg to differ still a 4a block and g head so technically its still a 4ag...if you going to be picky then any mods to the original engines no longer qualify it as a 4ag including formula Atlantics, Arnies "special" 4ag, to include your engines which have been modified outside original design....be picky across the board...but just for shits and giggles what would my engine technically be to you then without using the 4.5ag, 5ag, 5.5ag made up terms and would a 4ag with .25mm over bore pistons be a 4.1ag lol ......As far as 263 hp id have to see a video of that on the dyno or show the dyno sheet, anyone can fabricate a dyno sheet to say whatever they want it to say and as I stated in my previous post its known around the community and even Sandy and Erik say Arnies dynos read 10-15 hp more then everyone else's for some odd reason... Hasselgren as well. Billy Andrea claimed 220 hp on his 20v build but when I asked to see the dyno he supposedly lost it ...2 days after the supposed dyno...even the formula Atlantic engines he sells for hasslelgren I've seen people ask for dyno sheets which are never produced...not that there's anything wrong with not having them but to me if you claim a substantial figure have some proof to back it up..my build finishes tomorrow and I will post a video, dyno sheet, full build sheet, flow bench sheet and any other documentation they give me to back up my build. Then once the engine is in the car and tuning I will provide another whp sheet.

On a different note nice shop and cool cars! I see some of Sandys customers cars they drop off to have engines rebuilt but they old school lotus'e mostly with pinto race engines or some old cosworth engines.

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:23 pm
by oldeskewltoy
gaijin_rokurunner wrote:I beg to differ still a 4a block and g head so technically its still a 4ag...if you going to be picky then any mods to the original engines no longer qualify it as a 4ag including formula Atlantics, Arnies "special" 4ag, to include your engines which have been modified outside original design....be picky across the board...but just for shits and giggles what would my engine technically be to you then without using the 4.5ag, 5ag, 5.5ag made up terms and would a 4ag with .25mm over bore pistons be a 4.1ag lol ......As far as 263 hp id have to see a video of that on the dyno or show the dyno sheet, anyone can fabricate a dyno sheet to say whatever they want it to say and as I stated in my previous post its known around the community and even Sandy and Erik say Arnies dynos read 10-15 hp more then everyone else's for some odd reason... Hasselgren as well. Billy Andrea claimed 220 hp on his 20v build but when I asked to see the dyno he supposedly lost it ...2 days after the supposed dyno...even the formula Atlantic engines he sells for hasslelgren I've seen people ask for dyno sheets which are never produced...not that there's anything wrong with not having them but to me if you claim a substantial figure have some proof to back it up..my build finishes tomorrow and I will post a video, dyno sheet, full build sheet, flow bench sheet and any other documentation they give me to back up my build. Then once the engine is in the car and tuning I will provide another whp sheet.

On a different note nice shop and cool cars! I see some of Sandys customers cars they drop off to have engines rebuilt but they old school lotus'e mostly with pinto race engines or some old cosworth engines.



It is true I don't have the dyno sheet to show you.... but.... I was there as he ran it up... I was there watching the dyno meters as the engine twisted....... You can call me a liar... but I know what I saw..... :mrgreen:

Image
Loyning's dyno rooms

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:11 pm
by gaijin_rokurunner
Im not calling u a liar but i have to throw in the BS card if you cant back it up...i know if i saw a N/A 4ag pushing that much i would of at least took a picture of the screen or something ..i mean i can say Sandy has a 264 hp 4ag at the shop ive seen it and top your claim lol..so with that said if my engine makes over 250 QRE will have the "documented" highest hp N/A 4ag on record until u or anyone else produce a video and dyno sheet so we know its bot doctored like some people here in the past wont mention any names ! 4ag meaning 4a block and g head doesn't matter the mods as long as those two items remain original and its N/A

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:34 pm
by Billy_Andrea
I didn't lose the dyno sheet, I gave it to the new owner of the engine.
My 16v made 231 on pump fuel and 249 on 110 with my Pectel T6 loaded with dual switchable maps. I didn't ask for the dyno sheet when picking up the engine because I trust in the ability of an experienced engine builder to do what they do best. Also, I just don't really care that much. If they would be trying to pad the numbers it would be more than they usually make, not less.
Also, Arnie and Paul now easily build 1600s with 260+ and 1800s with 280+. There's a rally car in Barbados with an 1800 making 296bhp at almost 11k. Both builders have now gotten these builds to a basic science.
I have already talked to Hasselgren about upgrading to 1800 next year. 2 weeks, $5,000 and I'll have 280bhp ready to put back in the car.

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:32 pm
by gaijin_rokurunner
thats fine and dandy but im a realist if you claim something I need to see proof of that claim....especially if im going to buy a 15-20g engine you sell...Im sorry word of mouth isnt worth anything to me...but theres always a sucker out there....So with all the above said I will correct my last two post I will have the highest documented bhp N/A 20v on record come tomorrow .....since most of your guys builds are all 16v setups...lol unless of course you produce more then word of mouth

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:24 pm
by oldeskewltoy
Can we(Tony, Billy, Dan... and anyone else working with a ultra high end builder) all agree........

the engine dyno means significantly less then seeing what she plants after it is installed in a car..... :ugeek:

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:03 pm
by gaijin_rokurunner
yeah i will agree to that but dyno results are good for bragging lol....not only that but for me I like to see what my 25g actually accomplished just for my personal satisfaction or dissatisfaction...a lot of people email for advice as Im sure they do you and Billy and i like to give them the straight talk and let them know if they are wasting their money or not based off my own experience....this is my most expensive car and engine build ever with the AE86 and 4ag I probably could replicate all my past cars with this one build...(well except my RHD 73 sprinter i wrecked or the 74 levin i built with the 2tg)...whats engine building anyways without **** talking...Im sure Sandy and Arnie and Steve from Elite and whoever is at Hasselgren all flip each other birds at the track for competitive fun!

Re: Complete Formula Atlantic 4AG parts list & specs

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:26 pm
by cedu
Thread bump.

#7 on Jalopnik, #1 in our hearts.

http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-worst-car-t ... 1053408165