I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

mr2mk1hero
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I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:06 pm

After spending a few weeks trying to figure out why my engine is low on power and why my crank pulley seems like its bouncing when I point a timing light at, and why I have a bit of a misfire, and maybe a bit of pinging and just can't get the car running right I think I am finally onto something.
I have eliminted 100% cam timing, vacuum leaks, tps, afm, injectors, and everything else.

After spending 3 hours on toyodiy I realized that I have an impossible combination of parts on my car:

My distributor part number: 19100-16170
Image: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/kumachn/AE86/Distributer/IMG_0007a.jpg

My TPS part number:89452-20070

I have cross referenced every possible combination on toyodiy and there is no single car that has this dizzy and this tps.

My tps only goes with the dizzy that has a cap like this: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqZHJBgE-QSFYkJyBPnzWud8TQ~~/s-l300.jpg

These two different dizzy caps are not interchangeable, I can not bolt this dizzy cap to my dizzy. I checked this on toyodiy too and the dizzy housings are different.
The dizzy I have is never in combination with a 89452-20070 tps.

I am almost 100% certain that my engine comes from a corolla because my timing belt tensioner bolt was just a normal bolt without a spike, like it's on a corolla.

So somewhere along the way someone replaced the engine and then distributor in my MR2 and now have a stupid combo that is probably impossible to time properly.

Please help me figure out what I need to do... I am thinking about getting a new TPS that matches the rest of my engine (89452-12040), or maybe getting a dizzy that matches the TPS? Think it will help?
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jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:44 pm

The high tension side of the dizzy is "dumb". It doesn't know or care where the
spark comes from or where it goes. It just connects the coil to the plugs to allow
the spark to have somewhere to go :)

So if the plug leads are connected correctly, and the coil is being fired at the right
time by the ECU, the spark will get to the plug and do its job. The shape of the
dizzy cap is more to do with packaging than anything else. If it fits and the spark
has a path to follow, all is good.

Timing on a 4AGE has a minor complication in that Toyota want you to set the
base timing at 10DBTDC by shorting the diagnostic plug, and then leave the ECU
alone to add whatever extra advance it thinks is best for the engine according
to its internal maps. But you can bypass all that BS by just clipping a timing light
to the #1 plug lead and setting the timing to around 16DBTDC with a warm engine
idling at around 850-900rpm with all accessories OFF.

You only need to check to make sure the notch on your crank pulley is showing
zero when the engine is actually at TDC. A DTI down the plug hole and rocking
the engine back and forward a little will get you close enough. At the end of the
day, the only thing that really matters is that the spark is happening at the
correct timing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby taroroot » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:06 pm

That would be my assessment too, short the diagnostic connector and TPS doesn't matter. If with the diag shorted and your timing mark is still bouncing around, it's likely a problem with dizzy. Once I rebuilt one of my Dizzy's with new bearing and seals, my timing became rock solid.
The TPS could affect your power and driveability, but it won't have anything to do with the base timing.

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby matt dunn » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:23 am

The TPS does matter, especially with the diagnosti connector bridged.

The connector must be bridged AND the TPS contact closed before you can set the timing or it will bounce around as the ecu is not correctly in base timing mode.

The number of times I have seen cars with the timing incorrect because the TPS was not set first is quite a few.

I would also think that as long as the TPS works correctly the part number should not matter.
What is the CEL doing with the diagnostic connector bridged.?
If the TPS is set incorrectly you usually get a code 11

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:38 pm

Hey Matt, what you just said here ^^^^ set me wondering. When the engine speed drops
to idle in normal driving (diagnostic connector not bridged), does the advance change when
the IDL switch closes ?? Like, if at 900rpm you move the TPS ever so slightly so that the
switch changes state, does the timing jump up or down ??

The way I understand it, the ECU has a "run" map and an "idle" map, and changes from one
to the other when the IDL switch changes state. So if these maps have a different number
of degrees advance at 900rpm, the timing should change. Of course, if they have the same
advance at 900rpm, then there would be no change.

But from the limited amount of information available, it appears that the "idle" map retards
the ignition from the "run" map to improve idle quality. So if the IDL switch does not close
when the throttle closes, idle quality will be negatively affected. And this confirms what you
say about the TPS needing to be correctly set.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby matt dunn » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:23 pm

jondee86 wrote:does the advance change when the IDL switch closes ?? Like, if at 900rpm you move the TPS ever so slightly so that the
switch changes state, does the timing jump up or down ??

Cheers... jondee86


Yes it does change when the IDL switch switches.

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:27 am

Interesting !! Whenever I have set my timing by jumping the diagnostic plug.
I have been able to confirm that the ECU has actually entered diagnostic mode
by observing a drop in rpm. Set the timing to 10DBTDC and then see the rpm
jump up when I pull the jumper out. Idle will typically be around 16DBTDC.

Since the ECU won't go into diagnostic mode unless the IDL switch is closed,
and if the "idle" ignition map is retarded from the "run" ignition map, then the
16DBTDC reading at idle must be the idle map timing. If that is the case, then
the ignition timing should jump up sharply when the throttle is opened.

Have to admit that I have noticed it disappears off the timing belt cover scale
when revved, but I never bothered to see if if it jumps (say) 10 deg when the
throttle is opened just enough to get the IDL switch to open. Maybe someone
else running a factory ECU could do a test :)

For the OP... yes, if the engine is running at idle speed on the "run" ignition
map, the timing will jump around a lot, so better check that the IDL switch is
working correctly.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby matt dunn » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:55 am

jondee86 wrote:
Since the ECU won't go into diagnostic mode unless the IDL switch is closed,

Cheers... jondee86


It will go into diagnostic mode, just the base timing will be incorrect.

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:21 pm

matt dunn wrote:It will go into diagnostic mode, just the base timing will be incorrect.

Had to think about that one for a while :? But I think I have it straight now...

(a) Diagnostic mode for pulling codes... jump the connector and count the flashes.
If the IDL switch is not closed you get a Code 11. Pulling codes is done with the
engine OFF but the ignition turned to ON.

(b) Set ignition timing mode... jump the connector and check that timing drops
5 or 6 deg before setting base timing. Check again that the timing jumps up when
the test wire is removed to confirm the ECU was in ignition setting mode. This
mode requires the IDL switch to be closed for correct setting of base timing.

I had always assumed that the two modes were the same since they both involve
jumping the diagnostic plug. But looking into it a bit deeper I can see that I was
wrong in that assumption :oops: Thanks for your help in clearing the question up
as I am sure I would not be the only one to fall into that trap !!

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby taroroot » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:59 pm

Thanks for the clarifications, I have been corrected and have learned more, I just hope it stays in my brain!
As a matter of course I set the TPS before proceeding with rest of engine setup but it hadn't occurred to me that it affects the base timing. Makes sense. I thought when you jumper the connector it ignores inputs and sets a fixed timing.

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:51 pm

taroroot wrote:I thought when you jumper the connector it ignores inputs and sets a fixed timing.

As far as I can figure, to set the timing you only need to have the engine up to normal
operating temperature... and have the TPS IDL switch closed. Then, when you jump the
diagnostic plug, the ECU drops back to its base timing of 10DBTDC. What you are doing
is checking that the base timing is actually 10 deg on the timing cover scale, as otherwise
the ECU has no way of knowing the ingnition is correctly "zeroed".

Then when the jumper is removed, the ECU adds around 6 deg to bring the timing up to
16 deg +/- at idle. If, for example, the base timing was set at 6 deg instead of 10 deg,
the ECU would still add 6 deg and you would be running at 12DBTDC or 4 deg retarded. Or
if you thought you were in set timing mode and you wern't... and you set your timing to
10DBTDC, you would actually be running 6 deg retarded.

I have to say I always thought that you needed to satisfy all the requirements for going
into diagnostic mode to set the timing, But from the information provided by Matt, it
seems (and it is logical) that the ECU sets the IDLE map to a base of 10 deg (not the RUN
map) and therefore the IDL switch has to be closed. Never really had any reason to get
into this stuff before, as my car always dropped the idle when I jumped the plug :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:10 am

The saga (read nightmare) continues. I finally managed to figure the main culprit of my poor engine performance. My timing belt skipped a tooth. Why? Because of the stupid spring that tensions the belt tensioner pulley. My belt skips when I set it up as per BGB relying on the spring. So what I did is got rid of the spring and manually tensioned the belt by pushing the pulley all the way to the right using a big screwdriver. OST warned me against this stupid spring back when I was putting the engine together. My fault for not listening.

That is solved, car runs a lot better, a lot more power. But the fact remains that my engine is a Frankenstein. I got down to it and wrote down every single part number I could still read on my parts and using toyodiy I figured out which part comes from where. So here it is:

ECU - MR2 (08/1986)
AFM - MR2
THROTTLE BODY - MR2
IGNITER AND COIL - MR2
TPS - MR2

DISTRIBUTOR - AE92 COROLLA
EGR PIPING AND EGR VALVE AND MODULATOR - AE92 COROLA

My engine block and head also are most likely from an AE92, since they have just one timing notch on the pulley that aligns perfectly with the zero on the plastic timing cover when I am at TDC. I need to take a photo with my cell phone to actually verify this. Impossible to tell otherwise. This of course makes it impossible to time my engine. So I am timing it using the intake cam pulley. In diagnostic mode my timing is 1 cam pulley gear tooth before TDC, out of diagnostic mode my timing is 1 and a half intake cam gear teeth before TDC. Idle is a a lot smoother and pulleys don't jump all over the place when looking at them with a timing light. Cam and crank pulleys are now stable except a miss every 2 seconds or so that moves the pulley abruptly back.

I tried stabbing my distributor in a few different positions and figured out the one in which the car runs fine, but only when the distributor is rotated all the way towards the right, i.e. clockwise, i.e. towards the passenger side. In other positions it either does not start or runs horrible. I checked on toyodiy, the ae92 and aw11 distributors have the same gear that is driven by the exhaust cam, but other things are different, including cap and housing.

So, I took a few drives after setting the belt up properly, and the car ran pretty fine, really sweet above 4.5k or so. Sadly,this morning it developed another weird thing, in that the idle is not calm anymore but there are surges of rough running/ misfire going through the car. Its runs great but the interruptions come in waves when the car shakes a bit, every second or so. br br br br br BRBRBRBR br br br br br. Kinda hard to explain.

The diagnost mode shows 2 flashes, a pause and then 8 flashes. This indicates a problem with AFM and intake air temperature if I am right. Had just 1 flash going on before. AFM and TPS are 100% within specs.

I am certain it is not supposed to be this hard to enjoy one's car. Whoever did this part botching when they blew the original engine, "you are retarded and should go f**k yourself. I'm sorry I had to say it.

What do you guys think is the next logical step? Get a proper MR2 dizzy and give it a try? I assume the MR2 ECU wants an MR2 dizzy, just like it wants an MR2 AFM and MR2 TPS? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby Alex170984 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:59 am

I believe the MR2 dizzy and AE92 dizzy are the same as I'm using my MR2 dizzy in the Frankenstein engine I am actually building myself!

Is the MR2 ECU looking for a MAP instead of an AFM?

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:26 am

No, AFM is good its the original and goes with the original ECU I have.
AE92 and AW11 dizzy definitely not the same. Check toyodiy. At least that's the case on european vechicles.
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:58 pm

mr2mk1hero wrote:So I am timing it using the intake cam pulley. In diagnostic mode my timing is 1 cam
pulley gear tooth before TDC, out of diagnostic mode my timing is 1 and a half intake
cam gear teeth before TDC.

The above equates to 10 and 15DBTDC respectively. However, because the cam gears
rotate at half the speed of the crank gear, one degree at the cam equals 2 degrees at the
crank. See the reminder on the pulley in this pic...

Image

Thus, you are currently running at 20 degrees of base timing and 30 degrees of timing
at idle. I'm not surprised that your engine is a bit grumpy at idle :D This will also be the
reason that you have to set the distributor all the way round one way or the other to get
the timing where you want it.

If the crank timing notch is at zero on the scale on the lower timing belt cover, and you
have verified that the #1 piston is also at TDC, then there is no reason why you can't use
the scale for setting your timing.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:11 am

Thanks for the response jondee86!

My car is a MR2, stupid of me not to mention that. Timing against the timing cover doesn't work because its impossible to see it in an MR2.
I have made marks and bought the needle that is used for timing in an MR2, but it shows the same timing as the cam gear, around 20 bdtc.

The weird thing is that the car only wants to run like this. It is the smoothest and fastest at this setting. Idling at about 1000 rpm. When I try to move the distributor to the other side, even just a bit, the car starts to idle and run poorly and backfire. Its distributor all the way clockwise or nothing.

I know the the distributor is from an AE92 and its a different distributor than the one in the ae86 or the MR2, it has a different connector, cap and housing (someone wired an MR2 connector to mine to be able to use it). Now, I have looked around the web but I can't find anyone who has tried an ae92 distributor on an mr2 engine, or vice versa. I am probably going to order a used MR2 distributor from the UK and give it a go. Worst case scenario I will have a spare.
Do my 2 flashes and 8 flashes tell you anything? Bad AFM? My intake air temp sensor is in my AFM afaik.
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:16 am

Given that all the 16V 4AGE's were essentially identical mechanically, it is likely that
distributors from different car models will physically interchange. There will however
be some differences in the number of teeth on the trigger wheels, and in the number
and wiring of the pickups. Since you have indicated that the engine has run well on
several occasions, I am going to assume that the distributor you are using now is
electrically compatible with your ECU.

However, it might be worth checking to see if the ECU requires the pickups wired
individually (NE, G2, G, G1) or if they can have a common ground (G1, NE, G-). If
the plug has been changed from 3-wire to 4-wire there could be some mystery ?

Back in the day when engines had carbs and mechanical/vacuum advance distributors,
you could set the timing by moving the distributor until you got best idle, and no
pinking or hiccuping when you snapped the throttle open. You could also adjust the
timing using a vacuum gauge to obtain the highest possible manifold vacuum, and
then retard just enough to avoid pinging.

So if the prescribed method does not work, adjusting the timing until you find where
the engine is happiest (as you have done) is an acceptable alternative. I have always
found that with stock components, the distributor can be stabbed according to the
FSM and it will sit in the middle of its adjustment range. The only time this didn't
happen was with a set of aftermarket cams. Never did figure out why...

Two codes relating to the AFM suggest a loose plug or bad wire between the AFM
and the ECU. Check the plug has "clicked" when pushed home.

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby SgtRauksauff » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:04 am

Almost sounds like the distributor could still be a tooth off? I'd check by making sure the engine is at TDC, then pull the cap, and make sure the rotor is pointing right at where the the plug wire from cylinder 1 would go, with the distributor housing about in the middle of it's travel range.

When I first build my engine I was having a hell of a time making it run properly, and then realized that for some reason, I had measured that the piston was at TDC, but the camshafts were 180° out. I realized this when i took off the cam covers and was watching the distributor gear mesh with the teeth on the camshaft to make sure that it was going where it needed to, then realized that the lobes of the cams were facing the wrong direction for the combustion cycle.

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:57 pm

jondee86 wrote: However, it might be worth checking to see if the ECU requires the pickups wired
individually (NE, G2, G, G1) or if they can have a common ground (G1, NE, G-). If
the plug has been changed from 3-wire to 4-wire there could be some mystery ?


I will double check but I think that the corolla distributor that's in now has 4 wires.

My cams are actually aftermarket, very mild but aftermarket nonetheless. They are 2x exhaust catcams from their mildest set they make for the 4age. This one. http://www.catcams.com/products/camshaf ... TUP_id=827
But I made sure the gear on the cam that drives the distributor is 100% identical to the stock cam, and it really is.

SgtRauksauff wrote:Almost sounds like the distributor could still be a tooth off? I'd check by making sure the engine is at TDC, then pull the cap, and make sure the rotor is pointing right at where the the plug wire from cylinder 1 would go, with the distributor housing about in the middle of it's travel range.

When I first build my engine I was having a hell of a time making it run properly, and then realized that for some reason, I had measured that the piston was at TDC, but the camshafts were 180° out. I realized this when i took off the cam covers and was watching the distributor gear mesh with the teeth on the camshaft to make sure that it was going where it needed to, then realized that the lobes of the cams were facing the wrong direction for the combustion cycle.


The weird thing is that its definitely not a tooth off now. This is the only tooth that works. Any other tooth is either horribly rough running, like ridiculous, or it will not start.

The car actually ran with cams 180 degrees out? I might take the exhaust cam cover off to watch the dizzy, that sounds foolproof.
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:30 pm

mr2mk1hero wrote:My cams are actually aftermarket, very mild but aftermarket nonetheless. They are
2x exhaust catcams from their mildest set they make for the 4age.

The use of two exhaust cams raises an interesting question... one that I have some
difficulty getting straight in my head :) If you are using the OEM (non-vernier) cam
pulleys, they have slots for locating the pulley on the "knock pin" set into the mounting
face of the cam. Normally, the pin for the inlet cam goes (nearly) straight up and the
pin for the exhaust cam goes at 5 o'clock.

So how do you install an exhaust cam on the inlet side and get the lobes in the correct
position ? Do you disregard the TDC dimple on the cam pulley when installing the cam ?
Or can you use the the exhaust slot for setup ?

With the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke, the cams should be sitting
like this with "ears out" on #1 cylinder...

Image

Might be worth checking if you haven't already done so, as having the inlet side cam
incorrectly timed will affect the running of the engine. And I'm curious anyway :)

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:09 am

Image

Here is a shot of my two catcams exhaust cams. As you can see the lobes are almost exactly as in your image. I compared my two exhaust catcams against my stock inlet cam, and they have the lobes in the same places, its just that the lobes are slightly different in shape and size on the catcams. I think same goes for stock intake and exhaust cams, they are actually the same, they are just installed in different positions? Correct me if I am wrong. I still have the stock cams and pulleys in a box so I can take a look next time I go to the garage.

I am using T3 adjustable cam pulleys, and they are installed the same way as stock ones. They have TDC marking which you align against the backing plate markings, and then you can adjust further when you dial in the cams.
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:42 am

Yes, factory cams are identical apart from the distributor drive gear. As you say,
I can see now that the knock pins are also in the same position relative to the cam
lobes, so it is the location of the slots in the cam pulleys that sets the timing.

I'm just running through a few questions as they come to mind, about possibilities
that could affect the running of your engine. And the next one relates to injector
resistance and resistor boxes :) Your ECU will be be designed to run either with
high resistance injectors (1-12 Ohms) or low res injectors (2-3 Ohms). High res
injectors don't require the use of a resistor box, but low res injectors usually do.

Running low res injectors on an ECU that needs to see high res can overheat the
switching transistors and cause erratic injection or even failure of the transistors.
Have you checked that you are using compatible componets ?

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:29 am

Holy crap you might be onto something important there. I totally forgot about the injectors! Thank you!

I think they are corolla injectors as well, since the rebuild kit i ordred from them came with slightly diferent looking parts. it works, but works a bit differently. I ordered an MR2 kit of course.

How do I check injector and ecu compatibility? I see toyodiy gives different injector part numbers for the corolla that some my parts come from and for the MR2 that my other parts are from...There are absolutely no numbers on the injectors...
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jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:34 am

You would need to check the resistance of your injectors to see if they are high or
low res, and then see if the car that the ECU originally came from had high or low res
injectors. Or perhaps easier... did the car have a resistor box ? AFAIK the AW11 used
a resistor box, so had low res injectors. But, my JDM AE92 smallport had high res, as
did my UK spec AE86. I have no idea what was used in the TVIS AE92 models.

There are variations between markets and within models, so anecdotal evidence
cannot be relied on to be correct. Denso injectors always have a part number on them,
but easy enough to check the res with your multimeter.

You may not have a problem, but its nice to eliminate possibilities.

Cheers... jondee86
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Alex170984
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby Alex170984 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:09 am

The AW11 resistor box is on the right hand side of the engine bay near the engine fan/vent.

Corolla Smallport injectors are high impedance and will not run (I have looked into this for running higher CC injectors)

http://club4ag.com/tech-data/tech-specs ... nce-chart/

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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:23 am

The engine is a big port definitely, but its from an AE92. At least that's what toyodiy says. I know AE92 came both with the smallport and bigport in it?
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby Alex170984 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:00 am

Got a picture of your cylinder head?

mr2mk1hero
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby mr2mk1hero » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3RCP14rBxY
Go to 7:59 This is a video I made when I was doing a mild port job on the head. Definitely a big port.
I took apart and overhauled this entire engine. It is a bigport, with 9.3 comp pistons, the big journal crankshaft and the fat conrods. It has a 7rib block and no oil squirters.It also has t-vis.
Check out my blog: http://www.driving4answers.com/
Lots of photos, info, experiences and fun random stuff from a fellow die-hard AW11 enthusiast. Great for AW11 newbies with no mechanical or DIY experience - I am one so I speak your language

Alex170984
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby Alex170984 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:46 am

Yes it is a big-port sorry. My current engine is the same.

http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/P ... 04A-GE.htm

3rd paragraph does say AE92 came with TVIS - I stand corrected.

Sounds like a dizzy or injector issue.

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jondee86
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Re: I have a 4age frankenstein and its driving me crazy

Postby jondee86 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:27 am

Club4AG Tech Reference says ae92 with TVIS engines used low res injectors. If this
checks out with your research, then you should be using the resistor box.

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

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