7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

v33sonata
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7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:58 am

The stock ECU was running super lean (dotted graph). So when switched to mega Squirt we got that all leveled out. I think I am still a little rich so some fine tuning is in order. Big differences in power when the car cooled off for 5 mins. 137-140hp during 5 min cool downs and 130hp pretty consistently when doing run after run and lots of TQ right out of the gate.

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:32 am

stock blacktop head, w/ stock cams?

HP climbs nicely till 5400 and then runs flat....??? And torque takes a dive @ that same rpm
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:15 pm

Yup stock bt heads and cams. Yea I know power dies off earlier then I thought too. But couldn't get it to make power after that :/ I'm open to suggestions

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby c4ptiv3 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:51 pm

I put down the same power with my 16v 7AGE, something seems amiss. The power fell flat on it's face at 6300rpm and it was due to a spun bearing.

Per MRP LTD. the stock 4A/7A oil pan causes oil starvation issues. I hope the same thing did not happen to you.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Nope don't have a stock oil pan. My HP numbers should be similar just with more tq. It revs fine just stops making power :/

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:16 pm

Weird thing is that the stock ecu did the same exact thing

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:32 pm

my guess.... VVT is not working
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby Deuce Cam » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:39 pm

130wtq by 3200 rpm. Am I reading that right?

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:16 pm

Deuce Cam wrote:130wtq by 3200 rpm. Am I reading that right?


think his torque is the redline (not sure what the others are...) peak there is 127#/ft, @ 3200 it is about 122#/ft
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:05 pm

No vvt is working when not turning it on had about a 10HP loss thru out the band. 130. Is the tq. HP actually peaked at 131HP but dint have the curse on that spot. Either way seems a little off especially the tq dropping g off like it does

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby c4ptiv3 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:21 pm

Did you degree the cams?

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby jondee86 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:05 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Think his torque is the redline (not sure what the others are...)

Multiple runs overlaid on the same graph and coded by colour.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:44 am

cams are none ajustable but I did get all the goodies to make them work and all the markings are lined up like its supposed to be. Its been suggested its the shitty OBX header I have.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:17 am

v33sonata wrote:cams are none ajustable but I did get all the goodies to make them work and all the markings are lined up like its supposed to be. Its been suggested its the shitty OBX header I have.

a header will not steal 20hp........ even a shitty one
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:52 am

So I should be dynoing 150hp stock?

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:03 am

v33sonata wrote:So I should be dynoing 150hp stock?


maybe a bit more :shock: stock Blacktop typically plants about 140-145 whp. My mostly "stock" smallport plants 145whp
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:38 am

Hmm...... yea I dunno. Dint seem to want to make anymore power

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby mandm177 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:31 pm

I have a set of AE111 Toda Cam Gears if youre interested! :mrgreen:

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby c4ptiv3 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:06 pm

Even if you lined up the cams properly you have to adjust for the difference in block height. With the stuff you bought to line it up correctly everything may not be TDC.

I'd degree the cams and ensure that TDC matches what it shows on the block and cams. I'm going to have to do the same because I had the same issue and I'm almost certain everything is out of TDC. With my adjustables I put down 132hp/132tq and it fell flat on it's face at 6300rpm and I'm willing to bet that it was out of TDC because I didn't degree the cams or check TDC on the block, I was also running on a spun bearing.

I would think you should put down more power than my 16v equivalent. I've seen a few 7AGE's that put down 180hp and I would think we should be both closer to that.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:14 pm

180 is high. No I have the recut crank gear and I am at TDC while the cams are lined up. I thought this might be the issues so I checked again.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:22 pm

It would be a great idea to degree the cams. The broached timing gear is a good start and if everything lines up and seems good with it then degreeing the cams though suggested may not be critical. If everything doesn't line up though (And I do mean seeing what you expect to see, not actually looking good by the eyecrometer) then degreeing the cams would be a great start. unfortunately this is much easier when the motor is out of the car. Even small things like shaving the head can have a pretty significant effect on cam timing. Cam timing will have a significant effect on power curve. The 7A may benefit further from tweaking the cam timing. you may find optimal power is with non stock cam timing.

Also did you tune the motor to MBT or to detonation? If you got detonation where did you get it?

Assuming it was tuned to MBT and assuming there are no other unexpected variables or something I'm not thinking about I suspect your issue is largely cam timing. You could slap adjustable gears on it and see what happens but I would degree it first just so you know where you are starting. Adjustable cam gears would get rid of VVT which is a bummer. If you wanted to you could try retarding the cams a tooth and just see what it does. I don't know your internals situation but you would have to be very careful making sure everything cleared in both VVT modes.

In the near future I am going to be modifying my VVT pulley by machining more holes that will allow me to change cam timing by say 1 degree increments by using different holes in the gear so I can keep the gear and fine tune timing with my new cams. I could probably also offer this as a service for anyone interested. Probably will be more of a winter project though.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:45 am

Getting rid of the VVT doesn't really interest me a whole lot as power is quite a bit less without it. As for cam timing I find it really hard to believe it is off. I went over it 100 times with a few different people. But like you said maybe it doesnt like the stock marks. Not sure I am willing to take the risk on bending a valve by setting them off a tooth tho......... We did tune to detonation However IIRC she stopped making power way before then so we dialed the timing down. Think in the high RPM range she was detonating at 32degrees? but stopped making power at 27. Again we tried a bunch of things so I could be off on that. maybe this will help.......

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:22 pm

You say you went over it but it sounds like you are just eyeballing it by the marks. If that is the case it won't tell you anything about where the cams actually are. I mean it should be obvious if it's a tooth off and you might notice if it was off by half a tooth but even that much could be hard to tell. That's +- 5 degrees right there. That could have a significant impact on your power curve. And yeah it may just want a little different timing as well.
I definitely agree about getting rid of the VVT gear. That's why I will be modifying mine so I can tune cam timing with it.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:41 pm

you need to confirm TDC before you do anything else.....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:06 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:you need to confirm TDC before you do anything else.....


already did twice and had someone else check it out.

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:08 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:You say you went over it but it sounds like you are just eyeballing it by the marks. If that is the case it won't tell you anything about where the cams actually are. I mean it should be obvious if it's a tooth off and you might notice if it was off by half a tooth but even that much could be hard to tell. That's +- 5 degrees right there. That could have a significant impact on your power curve. And yeah it may just want a little different timing as well.
I definitely agree about getting rid of the VVT gear. That's why I will be modifying mine so I can tune cam timing with it.

The power loss getting rid of the VVT is big. Unless I go with a bigger cam

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby v33sonata » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:43 pm

So went to my tuner today to get a few things dialed in and he found a 1.6L 20v he tuned. its in the dotten lines and mine are solid. Very similar power dips

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:07 pm

v33sonata wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:you need to confirm TDC before you do anything else.....


already did twice and had someone else check it out.


with a piston stop??
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby jondee86 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:58 pm

v33sonata wrote:So went to my tuner today to get a few things dialed in and he found a 1.6L 20v
he tuned. its in the dotten lines and mine are solid. Very similar power dips

Not really my area of interest, but looking at the 7AGE from a laymans point
of view, what would I expect ? Basically the longer stroke of the 7AFE block can
be expected to deliver more torque, but with some reduction in maximum rpm.
The increase in engine capacity can also be expected to deliver more torque,
and the factory figures for the 7AFE bear this out.

Strapping on a 5-valve head "should" improve the breathing and throttle response.
However, the increase in breathing may not be as expected, since there is now
12% more air trying to get in and out of the combustion chambers.

Looking at your dyno graphs, I would say that is pretty much what I would expect.
A lot more torque below 6000rpm and then falling over maybe even a little sooner
than the 4AGE. My understanding is that the 7AGE is about more torque, and
that is what you have achieved. Also, bear in mind that the Dynapack is reputed
to be the lowest reading dyno out there. If you want a few more horses a rolling
road dyno will give them to you for the price of a run :)

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0405-chassis-dyno-guide/

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Re: 7age 20v Dyno numbers are in

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:00 pm

jondee86 wrote:Basically the longer stroke of the 7AFE block can
be expected to deliver more torque
The increase in engine capacity can also be expected to deliver more torque,
My understanding is that the 7AGE is about more torque,

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