Group A Engine

Calikid
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:01 pm

Group A Engine

Postby Calikid » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:52 pm

Where can I get a Group A engine for my ae86 like the one mentioned in Initial D? But not detuned for street use, I want all the HP....???? Any help is appreciated.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


MisterJerk
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Group A Engine

Postby MisterJerk » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 am


User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1654
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:47 am

Building to a Group "A" standard isn't that hard... (170hp 125#/ft) It takes a good combination of parts, and a knowledgeable engine builder. Building to an N2 standard is another story, N2 is similar O/S valves to an F/A engine.

A Grp"A" should cost under $10k, while the N2 is likely over $10k
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

User avatar
Rogue-AE95
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:03 pm
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Re: Group A Engine

Postby Rogue-AE95 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:51 pm

I thought the Group A 4A-GE in Initial D was a Silvertop? It's been a while since I watched the show, though. I remember he blew the 16v going against a Lancer Evo. And right around that time Bunta was talking to his friend about his "special purchase" engine.
'88 Corolla All-Trac

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


User avatar
Jeonsah
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: Group A Engine

Postby Jeonsah » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:46 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:Building to a Group "A" standard isn't that hard... (170hp 125#/ft) It takes a good combination of parts, and a knowledgeable engine builder. Building to an N2 standard is another story, N2 is similar O/S valves to an F/A engine.

A Grp"A" should cost under $10k, while the N2 is likely over $10k


Could you go into some of the difference between the Group A and the N2 4age? Im just curious.
WTB Best Motoring International VHS Volume 42!

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1654
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:33 am

Jeonsah wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:Building to a Group "A" standard isn't that hard... (170hp 125#/ft) It takes a good combination of parts, and a knowledgeable engine builder. Building to an N2 standard is another story, N2 is similar O/S valves to an F/A engine.

A Grp"A" should cost under $10k, while the N2 is likely over $10k


Could you go into some of the difference between the Group A and the N2 4age? Im just curious.


All the details are in the TRD Bible....

but in essence... the valve size/port size is larger(32 in vs 30.5, and 27.5 vs 25.5) the powerband is different GrpA is measured from 3k - 8k, while N2 is measured from 6k to 9k (that means cams are different - lifts mostly, GrpA required to remain @ 7.5mm, while the N2 engines ran 10mm), and the oiling system is significantly different with GrpA running wet sump, and N2 running dry sump
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Group A Engine

Postby jondee86 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:51 pm

From memory (and I don't mind being wrong on this) back in the day when you
could buy all the parts you needed from TRD, Group A engines were rated 170 hp
and used EFI, wheras Group N engines were rated 210 hp using carbs and a heap
of expensive parts. That is to say, almost every moving part (and a lot of non-
moving parts) on the N2 build were uprated to racing spec.

The result was that Group A cars were relatively common for both race and rally
all round the world, Group N never made it outside of Japan.

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

gaijin_rokurunner
Club4AG Pro
Posts: 510
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:51 pm
Location: PA

Re: Group A Engine

Postby gaijin_rokurunner » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:12 am

Actually N2 racing today doesn't go by any of those standards...top N2 car now which is the CBY Trueno doesn't use over sized valves or dry sump but he does use a 4.5ag kit which is bigger bore pistons and long rods...other cars are use 7a blocks and 5ag stroker kits...all rated around the 240-250ps range as well...some using Altezza 6 speeds and others still using T50 setups...
20v power.....powered by Orion's Demise!
Image

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Group A Engine

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:54 pm

Interesting. A few years ago I spoke with a guy who had started looking for more
power out of his 4AGE. He started adding parts... pistons, rods, cams and so on,
and the power climbed up. Eventually he was making around 220hp which was nice,
but the power band was from 8000-10000rpm. Below that it just fell on its face.

So in the end he had to admit that he had spent a butt load of cash to develop an
engine that was basically useless for anything but circle track. That was one of
the conversations that caused me to change direction with my AE86 :)

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

oldae82
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldae82 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:21 pm

So in the end he had to admit that he had spent a butt load of cash to develop an
engine that was basically useless for anything but circle track. That was one of
the conversations that caused me to change direction with my AE86 :)

Would you care to elaborate? I've asked so many questions on this site, and I feel I've wasted others' generous offers of insight and experience due to my lack of experience and funding. I've managed to make a tired ae82 go faster mostly by unbolting everything not functionally essential, but now I'd like to get a little more power, and maybe put the back seats in the car. I can't afford OST's head work, lovely as it is, but I've got some oversize smallport pistons, I've ordered a light weight flywheel/clutch/p.plate assembly, and I hope to install more aggressive cams (and assume I can figure out how to time them from this site). Is there more simple (cheap) stuff I can do? Forget about the back seat and the spare? I was told when building a Ford v-8 there's no sense putting more fuel and air in if I can't get it out. Is a header worth thinking about? Does a thinner head gasket make a worthwhile change? I don't want and can't afford an engine running on the ragged edge of disaster. I'd like something stout and un-finnicky.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Group A Engine

Postby jondee86 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:23 pm

There are a few basic facts that have to be kept in mind when trying to
extract more power out of a 4AGE engine. The first is that when Toyota
decided to produce a 4-valve engine, they wanted it to be "powerful" by
the standards of the day when they were competing with the likes of the
Honda CRX. So the factory went to a lot of trouble to make sure that the
4AGE was as efficient as it could be to meet the sporting image of the
AE86, while still being able to be driven to the mall by mom or dad.

This means that the factory cast iron exhaust manifold and two into one
merge section work pretty well. There is little to be gained by going any
larger than 2" dia on the exhaust. A high-flo cat and decent silencer will
keep the back pressure down. A cheap header is money down the drain.

The head design featured the popular at the time TVIS dual intake runner
system which helped to maintain some performance at low rpm while
allowing the engine to flow enough air for high rpm operation. The intake
side of the engine will not be a restriction with the kind of modifications
you are looking at just now. Keep the TVIS system operative.

Compression is your friend when looking for more power, so if you can
fit the smallport pistons (which means finding a way to mate 20mm
pistons to 18mm bigport rods) you are heading in the right direction.
The alternative, which may be cheaper, is to take a cut off the head
and use a thinner gasket. Bearing in mind that a thinner (MLS) gasket
may also require a cleanup cut off the block to make sure the mating
surfaces are suitably prepared. A CR of around 10.5:1 would be nice.

More compression means that you can use cams with more duration or
lift, and personally I would suggest you aim for as much lift as you can
get (say 8.5mm ) and around 272 duration. Anything less and your butt
dyno will be disappointed.

Now the sticking point :| The engine computer (ECU) is factory set
(non-adjustable) and programmed to work with stock compression and
cam timing. This means that once you modify these two parameters,
neither your fuel mixture nor ignition timing will be correct. So you
need to factor into your budget some kind of aftermarket ECU. Without
proper engine management you run a real risk of doing a lot of work for
little or no gain.

A lighter flywheel is always nice, as it makes the engine more responsive.
Standard clutch and pressure plate will handle a modest increase in power
and normal tuneup items like plugs, filters and oil are a good investment.

There are as many opinions as there are active members on these forums,
and I am sure there will be other worthy suggestions and tips to come :)

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1654
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:35 am

oldae82 wrote:So in the end he had to admit that he had spent a butt load of cash to develop an
engine that was basically useless for anything but circle track. That was one of
the conversations that caused me to change direction with my AE86 :)

Would you care to elaborate? I've asked so many questions on this site, and I feel I've wasted others' generous offers of insight and experience due to my lack of experience and funding. I've managed to make a tired ae82 go faster mostly by unbolting everything not functionally essential, but now I'd like to get a little more power, and maybe put the back seats in the car. I can't afford OST's head work, lovely as it is, but I've got some oversize smallport pistons, I've ordered a light weight flywheel/clutch/p.plate assembly, and I hope to install more aggressive cams (and assume I can figure out how to time them from this site). Is there more simple (cheap) stuff I can do? Forget about the back seat and the spare? I was told when building a Ford v-8 there's no sense putting more fuel and air in if I can't get it out. Is a header worth thinking about? Does a thinner head gasket make a worthwhile change? I don't want and can't afford an engine running on the ragged edge of disaster. I'd like something stout and un-finnicky.



This really needs a posting of its own..... Jondee did hit the nail squarely... the original TVIS engines NEED more static compression. The rest can all be argued...
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Group A Engine

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:20 pm

jondee86 wrote:Interesting. A few years ago I spoke with a guy who had started looking for more
power out of his 4AGE. He started adding parts... pistons, rods, cams and so on,
and the power climbed up. Eventually he was making around 220hp which was nice,
but the power band was from 8000-10000rpm. Below that it just fell on its face.

Cheers... jondee86


This is a very relative discussion. A lot of people will use words like streetable saying that a 240 hp Forumula Atlantic won't be "streetable" or "will fall on it's face". If built properly said motor should make similar power to a stock 4A at least over 3000 RPM if not lower than that. In this case it should be considered at least as "streetable" as a stock 4AGE. It's just that when the motor makes double stock hp at redline stock power at 3000 RPM will feel a lot slower. Then there is the fact that a good turbo setup or a larger displacement motor could make double that hp from 3000 to redline which would make a big difference in both feel and performance.

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Group A Engine

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:36 pm

oldae82 wrote:So in the end he had to admit that he had spent a butt load of cash to develop an
engine that was basically useless for anything but circle track. That was one of
the conversations that caused me to change direction with my AE86 :)

Would you care to elaborate? I've asked so many questions on this site, and I feel I've wasted others' generous offers of insight and experience due to my lack of experience and funding. I've managed to make a tired ae82 go faster mostly by unbolting everything not functionally essential, but now I'd like to get a little more power, and maybe put the back seats in the car. I can't afford OST's head work, lovely as it is, but I've got some oversize smallport pistons, I've ordered a light weight flywheel/clutch/p.plate assembly, and I hope to install more aggressive cams (and assume I can figure out how to time them from this site). Is there more simple (cheap) stuff I can do? Forget about the back seat and the spare? I was told when building a Ford v-8 there's no sense putting more fuel and air in if I can't get it out.


Sounds like something a V8 builder would say. Oversimplified inaccurate statement that contains some grain of truth. If you have a restriction on the exhaust side that will prevent you from getting anything more in on the intake side so intake side modifications would not allow more air in if the exhaust side is the primary restriction.
With that said as mentioned the stock exhaust is pretty decent for near stock power levels. More importantly there are no off the shelf headers or exhausts that have proven repeatable gains so if you are ready to get more out of your exhaust system your best bet would be something custom designed and built. Then ideally a few versions tested to see which perform better with your setup. Not a cheap or easy project. Fortunately there is a lot of room to grow before you need to worry about it.
If your goal is best $/hp ratio then turbo is the clear choice. It will cost a little more up front than the mods you suggest but will by far give you the best gains per dollar spent.
If turbo is not an option then you are roughly on the right path but the quality and forethought in will equal the results you get out. Just throwing random parts at a build will get you uninspiring results. This is the route that most 4A owners take and it is the reason the 4A has such a reputation of being a disappointing and expensive motor to get power out of. Build it right and it's not bad but it is still a 1.6 liter motor so you can't expect to build an NA 2GR killer for $3k. You could build a turbo 2GR killer for $3k though so that is worth keeping in mind.
One thing that particularly sucks about NA builds is they aren't condusive to building in stages. Pick your compression for your current cam then go with a bigger cam and your compression will no longer be ideal. Pick the compression for the cam you want in the future and it will be too high for your current cam. Turbo builds are great because they take very well to building in stages. Throw a turbo on a stock motor and you can push it till you reach the limits of the engine management. Add aftermarket engine management and you can push it to the limits of the stock internals. Upgrade the internals and you can push it to the limits of your turbo. Upgrade the turbo and the limits are pretty much dependent on the size you pick.

Either way increasing displacement is a huge benefit. A 7AGE hybrid is a relatively cheap and easy way to gain some displacement and power curve.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/get ... brid-build

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1654
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:38 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Sounds like something a V8 builder would say. Oversimplified inaccurate statement that contains some grain of truth.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ............. sad
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

oldae82
Club4AG Enthusiast
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldae82 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:12 pm

Guys, you're making my head hurt.

Billy_Andrea
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 413
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Location: SF

Re: Group A Engine

Postby Billy_Andrea » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:38 am

Yoshimitsuspeed is absolutely correct above. Just because an engine makes its peak power at 9000-10000 rpm doesn't mean it can't move under its own power below that.
A typical Atlantic type is making around:

120bhp at 4800,
145bhp at 5800
195bhp at 6800
220bhp at 7800
240bhp at 8800
250bhp at 9800

My engine is just fine driving around downtown SF. Good oil pressure in traffic, good coolant temp. If I can simply ignore the noise at idle, the rattle from the clutch & the smell of the gantry injection I could drive it all day. But I can't. I love driving it as much as possible & it's surprisingly easy to drive, even with 12:1 compression, a tiny flywheel & a 2 disc clutch with no hub springs.

The only thing that stops me driving it more is the fear of it being stolen, other than that I'd drive it 3-4 days per week. Oh, heating the oil before use is a pain in the A as well. I find it to be no less drivable than anything else out there that has been modified to perform at a high level.

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Group A Engine

Postby jondee86 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:24 pm

Billy_Andrea wrote:120bhp at 4800,
145bhp at 5800
195bhp at 6800
220bhp at 7800
240bhp at 8800
250bhp at 9800

Interesting that the engine power keeps going up way after peak torque
has been and gone. I guess that this is done on purpose because the engine
is primarily used at high rpm's (in FA), and close ratio gears will keep the
engine turning in the 7500-10000 rpm range.

Like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfabNp1TI-k 8-)

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Group A Engine

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:08 pm

jondee86 wrote:Interesting that the engine power keeps going up way after peak torque
has been and gone. I guess that this is done on purpose because the engine
is primarily used at high rpm's (in FA), and close ratio gears will keep the
engine turning in the 7500-10000 rpm range.

Like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfabNp1TI-k 8-)

Cheers... jondee86


Torque on it's own is irrelevant. All that matters is making as much power as possible over a wide enough range to cover the gear ratios. HP will continue to climb as long as torque doesn't fall faster than torque x RPM /5252.

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1654
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Group A Engine

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:02 am

jondee86 wrote:Interesting that the engine power keeps going up way after peak torque
has been and gone.


peak torque may not be where you may think.... :ugeek:

Billy_Andrea wrote:A typical Atlantic type is making around:

120bhp at 4800,
145bhp at 5800
195bhp at 6800
220bhp at 7800
240bhp at 8800
250bhp at 9800

My engine is just fine driving around downtown SF.


Where is your torque peak???
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Group A Engine

Postby jondee86 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:25 pm

RPM HP TQ
4800 120 131
5800 145 131
6800 195 151
7800 220 148
8800 240 143
9800 250 134

The Optimal Shift Point

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.



Return to “TECH: 4A-GE ENGINE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests