Future Build Components

Alex170984
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Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:29 am

Hi all,

After my wedding at the end of August this year I am to rebuild another engine I'm being given.

So far here is my wish list.

85' 3-rib block

82mm pistons from matrix garage = MG/Arias 11:5:1
Supertech Oversize Exhaust Valves 32mm
Supertech Oversize Inlet Valves 32mm
Supertech uprated valve springs
Uprated conrods (manufacturer undecided)
Genuine Toyota Main and big end shells
TRD 0.8 Metal Head Gasket
Reusing my CAT CAMS 8.5/9.0 252-260 duration
4AGZE Crankshaft

If I keep the stock ECU what sort of max power could I be looking at? I'd love to get Megasquirt but cannot justify spending £700 on another ECU if it's not going to make much more than 170hp

Am I being too optimistic with parts?

Cheers

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:50 am

Alex170984 wrote:Hi all,

After my wedding at the end of August this year I am to rebuild another engine I'm being given.

So far here is my wish list.

85' 3-rib block

82mm pistons from matrix garage = MG/Arias 11:5:1
Supertech Oversize Exhaust Valves 32mm
Supertech Oversize Inlet Valves 32mm
Supertech uprated valve springs
Uprated conrods (manufacturer undecided)
Genuine Toyota Main and big end shells
TRD 0.8 Metal Head Gasket
Reusing my CAT CAMS 8.5/9.0 252-260 duration
4AGZE Crankshaft

If I keep the stock ECU what sort of max power could I be looking at? I'd love to get Megasquirt but cannot justify spending £700 on another ECU if it's not going to make much more than 170hp

Am I being too optimistic with parts?

Cheers



Big crank in 3 rib block is not typical... I'd still look for a 7 rib block. No need for aftermarket rods (except mass savings)... Supertech exhaust valves would be 27.5mm. If you use Supertech springs, then you must use their retainers, and their spring seats... I'd also use their keepers. All those extra bits add cost... a set of Toda springs and your done.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:18 am

Yeah I know about the crank in that block, I'd just rather not remove my engine and not be able to use the car whilst I'm building the engine is all plus it's a free engine. I have been told it's not typical but it can still take good power through it. Plus it's coming from a very reputable source so I know all is okay with block.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby familyman » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:55 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Alex170984 wrote:Hi all,

After my wedding at the end of August this year I am to rebuild another engine I'm being given.

So far here is my wish list.

85' 3-rib block

82mm pistons from matrix garage = MG/Arias 11:5:1
Supertech Oversize Exhaust Valves 32mm
Supertech Oversize Inlet Valves 32mm
Supertech uprated valve springs
Uprated conrods (manufacturer undecided)
Genuine Toyota Main and big end shells
TRD 0.8 Metal Head Gasket
Reusing my CAT CAMS 8.5/9.0 252-260 duration
4AGZE Crankshaft

If I keep the stock ECU what sort of max power could I be looking at? I'd love to get Megasquirt but cannot justify spending £700 on another ECU if it's not going to make much more than 170hp

Am I being too optimistic with parts?

Cheers



Big crank in 3 rib block is not typical... I'd still look for a 7 rib block. No need for aftermarket rods (except mass savings)... Supertech exhaust valves would be 27.5mm. If you use Supertech springs, then you must use their retainers, and their spring seats... I'd also use their keepers. All those extra bits add cost... a set of Toda springs and your done.


Hey guys, AE86 and 4AGE newb here trolling for my own build info. I don't want to hijack this thread so if need be I'll move along. But, just in case, I've got an 89' big port and am curious; when you say Toda springs and done, what other components of that build list can be left out?
Only time and money limit what I'm capable of...

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:30 am

We also have our valve springs. They are a little cheaper and great for most cams up to about 10mm.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ma ... ve-springs

You do however want to be careful with oversized valves. People often don't realize how much the mass of a valve effects it. Oversized valves will need more spring to controll the added mass. With that said, with those cams and stock redline I suspect you would be fine.

The other thing to ask yourself is if the gains of OS valves will justify the cost. 1mm OS is about all the stock seats can take and that is opening them up to about their limit. Without opening up the valve throat a bigger valve can actually steal power because it's a bigger obstruction to airflow. So the question is whether you want to go with 1mm over and if it's worth the cost of the valves and proper porting or if it's worth going bigger and getting bigger seats installed to make the valves work properly.


familyman
it would probably be best if you started a thread as a proper build is really dependent on the relationship of all the parts.
With that said, what OST was getting at is that the Supertech springs are designed to work with all their other components that make it rather expensive to do springs. Whereas springs like ours, Toda and many others is they are designed to work with stock retainers and keepers and all that. You can upgrade those if you want but it's not necessary and not a huge benefit especially if you are staying near stock redline.
As for what components on that list you should or shouldn't use or what others you may need is definitely an in depth conversation that would probably deserve it's own thread.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:28 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:We also have our valve springs. They are a little cheaper and great for most cams up to about 10mm.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ma ... ve-springs

You do however want to be careful with oversized valves. People often don't realize how much the mass of a valve effects it. Oversized valves will need more spring to controll the added mass. With that said, with those cams and stock redline I suspect you would be fine.

The other thing to ask yourself is if the gains of OS valves will justify the cost. 1mm OS is about all the stock seats can take and that is opening them up to about their limit. Without opening up the valve throat a bigger valve can actually steal power because it's a bigger obstruction to airflow. So the question is whether you want to go with 1mm over and if it's worth the cost of the valves and proper porting or if it's worth going bigger and getting bigger seats installed to make the valves work properly.


familyman
it would probably be best if you started a thread as a proper build is really dependent on the relationship of all the parts.
With that said, what OST was getting at is that the Supertech springs are designed to work with all their other components that make it rather expensive to do springs. Whereas springs like ours, Toda and many others is they are designed to work with stock retainers and keepers and all that. You can upgrade those if you want but it's not necessary and not a huge benefit especially if you are staying near stock redline.
As for what components on that list you should or shouldn't use or what others you may need is definitely an in depth conversation that would probably deserve it's own thread.


Thanks for the tip of your springs ;)

Obviously not now, but in the future, would we be able to work out some sort of deal with your pistons, valve springs etc? There is a guy who works in Louisiana and the UK throughout the year, so I am using him as my mule to avoid import tax ;)

I was going to have some head work done as well, port matching and to remove all the unnecessary material like I've seen on one of 'oldeskewltoy' threads somewhere. Got a quote for a stage 1 head (need to look into whatever that covers) for £450. Would removing that material to increase the flow aid the standard valves and remove the want to get larger ones?

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:09 am

Alex170984 wrote:I was going to have some head work done as well, port matching and to remove all the unnecessary material like I've seen on one of 'oldeskewltoy' threads somewhere. Got a quote for a stage 1 head (need to look into whatever that covers) for £450. Would removing that material to increase the flow aid the standard valves and remove the want to get larger ones?


£450 - $640 ish... What will they do for that money? My minimum basic port work runs $600, but there are always other costs involved, so ask them specifically what you get for your money.

For comparison.... my fee schedule:
    $600 (minimum service) to do the 16 bowls/seats, taper the valve guides, deshroud and balancing chamber volume, exhaust port re-taper, and polishing.
    $200-$350 3 angle valve job (higher cost = race shop, lower cost = regular machine shop)
    $200 to blend the intake guide bosses and to re-taper port roof - largeport
    $200 to blend intake guide bosses, blend port walls, and re-taper port roof - smallport
    $125 to build an intake side oil drain (similar to smallport) on largeport heads
    $100 for machining of the heads surface
    $80 for cam journal deburring and polishing, and overall deburring
    $80 for hand lapped valves
    $60 for re-assembly
    $80 to set valve clearances - your supplied camshaft, special order shims not included
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby gotzoom? » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:29 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:Big crank in 3 rib block is not typical... I'd still look for a 7 rib block. No need for aftermarket rods (except mass savings)... Supertech exhaust valves would be 27.5mm. If you use Supertech springs, then you must use their retainers, and their spring seats... I'd also use their keepers. All those extra bits add cost... a set of Toda springs and your done.


I have an engine with a 3-rib block, 42mm crank and small port pistons and rods. As long as everything is to spec, you shouldn't have any problems. Agreed that it's not typical, though. If you do plan to use Supertech springs and retainers do not use the keepers that come in the kit! See this thread for more details. Toward the middle of the thread, you'll see how to determine which keepers you have. From what I have seen, early largeport engines have the right keepers (2 heads that I have measured keepers on, anyway.)

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:27 am

Alex170984 wrote:Would removing that material to increase the flow aid the standard valves and remove the want to get larger ones?


yes(maybe?)..... my flowbench testing checking valves and port work - viewtopic.php?t=17112
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:55 pm

Do you guys know how much a 4AGZE balanced and polished crankshaft is worth?

Cheers

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:10 pm

Alex170984 wrote:Do you guys know how much a 4AGZE balanced and polished crankshaft is worth?

Cheers



Toyota only ever made 2 crankshafts for ALL 4AGE engines. One crank is 1983-1987, is referred to as the "small" crank because the rod journal is smaller then the crankshaft that came in 1988-1996. ALL 4AGZEs use the later crank, as do all 4AGEs made after 1988.


has it been cut? If it has been cut, I'd keep looking, as the S/C cranks are far more plentiful then earlier cranks

New cranks may still be available, and last I checked they were under $500
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby jondee86 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:38 pm

Alex170984 wrote:After my wedding at the end of August this year I am to rebuild another engine I'm being given.

That's pretty cool... when I got married all I got was a toaster and a dinner set :D

Cheers... jondee86
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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:34 am

jondee86 wrote:
Alex170984 wrote:After my wedding at the end of August this year I am to rebuild another engine I'm being given.

That's pretty cool... when I got married all I got was a toaster and a dinner set :D

Cheers... jondee86


Lol that's a pretty good gift isn't it haha

No you cannot get new cranks in the UK any more. Cheapest refurb I looked at when I damaged the end of mine was £300 plus shipping plus import tax. Ridiculous really. N/A cranks are much easier to get a hold of over here. SC cranks are like gold dust. I was going to offer the chap who said I could have his, £300...he said I could have it for £50 which was a result and no it's not been cut.

Oldeskewltoy I will ask the chap who gave me the cost of the head mods.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:26 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Alex170984 wrote:I was going to have some head work done as well, port matching and to remove all the unnecessary material like I've seen on one of 'oldeskewltoy' threads somewhere. Got a quote for a stage 1 head (need to look into whatever that covers) for £450. Would removing that material to increase the flow aid the standard valves and remove the want to get larger ones?


£450 - $640 ish... What will they do for that money? My minimum basic port work runs $600, but there are always other costs involved, so ask them specifically what you get for your money.

For comparison.... my fee schedule:
    $600 (minimum service) to do the 16 bowls/seats, taper the valve guides, deshroud and balancing chamber volume, exhaust port re-taper, and polishing.
    $200-$350 3 angle valve job (higher cost = race shop, lower cost = regular machine shop)
    $200 to blend the intake guide bosses and to re-taper port roof - largeport
    $200 to blend intake guide bosses, blend port walls, and re-taper port roof - smallport
    $125 to build an intake side oil drain (similar to smallport) on largeport heads
    $100 for machining of the heads surface
    $80 for cam journal deburring and polishing, and overall deburring
    $80 for hand lapped valves
    $60 for re-assembly
    $80 to set valve clearances - your supplied camshaft, special order shims not included


"stage 1 is the fully gas-flowed head, with standard size valves, what we do is strip the head, as remove valves and springs, and then head is cleaned and blasted and then the head is fully gas-flowed and then the old valves are cleaned and re-seated back into the head, all we need is the bare head with the valves and the rest we do in the price".

That's what I get for £450 - obviously shaving/machining the head, 3 angled valve job will be extra.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:46 am

As already said there is no such thing as an NA or SC crank.
There is only an early 40mm crank and after about 86/87 the 42mm crank that every 4AGE after that ran.

If you walk into Toyota and ask for a crank for a 1988 MR2 NA and a 1988 MR2 SC they will hand you two identical cranks with two identical part numbers.
If you can't actually get a crank for any 4AGE made after 1987 that is truly unfortunate.
I can still get them here but shipping and duties would suck.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:28 am

Ok understood but bearing in mind the difficulty I had trying to find a replacement crank when I damaged the end of mine, £50 is a bargain considering I had my current crank 'sleeved' for £102...

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:39 am

I know someone in the UK who should be able to get you a used but inspected 42mm crank. He might also be a resource for other parts you need or possibly even with the build it's self.
He doesn't really frequent the forums anymore but if you want me to put you in touch with him shoot me an email and I'll get you his info.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:58 pm

Hi Yoshi,

I am getting a polished and balanced 42mm crank from my mate for £50 so no issue there nor is an engine builder.

There is an older fellow I know who has built formula atlantic engines in the past and has had high powered n/a corollas built in his garage as well, so I'm in good hands ;)

He's got 3 pistons 82.5mm bore, HG, piston rings, rods that I can have for my build - just need to find out what make of piston it is...apparently they are bought separately, which makes me think it's going to be really rare and expensive...

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:15 pm

Right on.
Let me know what you find out. I can get things like rings for most pistons.
I just sent you a PM BTW.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:08 am

If I reuse my 252/260 cams, i'm assuming the extra compression will help them out quite a lot? Currently its 10:2 but hoping to go for 11:8

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:25 pm

Alex170984 wrote:If I reuse my 252/260 cams, i'm assuming the extra compression will help them out quite a lot? Currently its 10:2 but hoping to go for 11:8


11.8:1 is pretty high for a mild cam.... you might try plugging your engine #s in to a DCR calculator to see about what your DCR is... as a reference, Skippy's engine is about 9.5

here are a few DCR (or - effective compression ratio) calculators: https://www.uempistons.com/index.php?ma ... type=comp2 OR http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

plugging your #s in to the first one... and I get a DCR around 9.7. That is higher then Skippy... your cranking compression will likely be over 200psi, that will require a very good chamber/piston to minimize detonation. Drop compression back to 11.5 and your DCR goes down to about 9.5... it still needs a good chamber to tolerate there
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:22 pm

A lot might mean different things to different people.
It should make a notable improvement if you can keep it from detonating. If I had to wager a guess I'd say maybe 10 hp. That compression bump should net you more if you could keep the same max MBT ignition timing but that is a lot of compression for that little cam though and on pump gas I suspect you will have a hard time avoiding detonation. You may get it to work by pulling timing but that will loose some power. On the bright side running on the high side does mean that if you take it to the track or otherwise throw some race gas in it you can get more out of it when you crank the timing. On pump gas you will have to be real careful though with that much compression and especially with those cams.

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:37 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
Alex170984 wrote:If I reuse my 252/260 cams, i'm assuming the extra compression will help them out quite a lot? Currently its 10:2 but hoping to go for 11:8


11.8:1 is pretty high for a mild cam.... you might try plugging your engine #s in to a DCR calculator to see about what your DCR is... as a reference, Skippy's engine is about 9.5

here are a few DCR (or - effective compression ratio) calculators: https://www.uempistons.com/index.php?ma ... type=comp2 OR http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php


DCR and ECR are completely different. More importantly one is actually useful information and the other is almost useless.

Here is my opinion on DCR at any rate.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/why ... ly-useless

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:22 am

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... 353.0;wap2


yosshi can argue semantics all day long... in essence what you are doing is a simple calculation to determine the engines ability to run on pump fuels......

yes ignition timing and other thing affect the chances of detonation... but in the end, a milder DCR, or ECR then your specs calculate to would be easier on you and your engine......
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:01 am

On the same subject... from one of the most renown race engine builder/designers.....

Darin Morgan wrote:Some the the best engine builders in the world have tackled that problem and the ones I talked to all did it pretty much the same way. They tried to keep the duration small , little overlap and as much valve velocity they could get away with on an endurance/street cam. They then kept bumping up the CR until it melted and backed off a notch. Its still trial and error is what I am trying to say. You can dig around for every calculation in the book and it will help but it wont tell you how. Talk to people who build these types of engines because high performance pump gas engines are tricky. When it comes to making SERIOUS power with pump gas, Air fuel management is your BEST FRIEND don't forget that!!!! EFI will let you do things that Carburetors cant get close to. Chamber heat, cam duration, overlap duration, air fuel management and don't forget chamber/ piston design! OH boy is that important! After talking to Kasse about everything he went through to make power on low octane fuel, I wont touch it with a twenty foot pole. Its very difficult when your trying to make Serious power with 92 octane, making power with 87 octane,,,,, I wouldn't even try it unless you have a lot of time and money.

Darin Morgan
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Phone 817-467-7171
Cell 682-559-0321
http://www.rehermorrison.com
Darin Morgan


A good read....... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1372
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Thu May 05, 2016 7:01 am

So I've got my free engine now. It's not got inlet or exhaust manifolds, but that's not an issue. It's a 3-rib, 40mm crank that's done 85k miles so that's very low compared to engines on eBay etc.

I also now have the mk1b crank which is in great condition! But i'm faced with having to buy conrods as I won't have any spare for the 42mm crank. I have them in the other engine however.

Are there reliability issues with using the 40/18 rods with uprated 82mm pistons? Or would it be better buying h-beam rods for my 42mm crank?

Cheers

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 05, 2016 9:44 am

Alex170984 wrote:So I've got my free engine now. It's not got inlet or exhaust manifolds, but that's not an issue. It's a 3-rib, 40mm crank that's done 85k miles so that's very low compared to engines on eBay etc.

I also now have the mk1b crank which is in great condition! But i'm faced with having to buy conrods as I won't have any spare for the 42mm crank. I have them in the other engine however.

Are there reliability issues with using the 40/18 rods with uprated 82mm pistons? Or would it be better buying h-beam rods for my 42mm crank?

Cheers



How high do you intend to twist it? As I pointed out in your other thread.... if you keep the rpm levels to 8000 ish( cammed with 264 type or smaller), then the early crank should work fine. As to pistons.... you can get custom piston fitted to your early rods... no big deal. OR if you want to spend a bit more you can have your rods modified in 1 of 2 ways. Version one is to keep the current pin size (18mm), but to add a bushing to the small end of the rod. This will give you a full floating pin. 2nd option is to have the small end of the rod opened to accept a bigger pin. down side to a bigger pin is it must be a fixed pin - not full floating.

Some will argue you need a full floating pin... as a counter argument the first 3+ years of 4AGE engines all came with fixed wrist pins, it wasn't until the development of the 4AGZE, and the advent of the bigger cranks/rods, did they add the full floating pin feature.

Both of my 4AGE use fixed pin pistons/rods
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Fri May 06, 2016 1:35 am

How is it possible to raise the RPM limit on the standard ECU? Mine cuts fuel or ignition off at 7.6k

I've never had to buy conrods before, are they worth it?

Cheers

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Re: Future Build Components

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 06, 2016 12:00 pm

Alex170984 wrote:How is it possible to raise the RPM limit on the standard ECU? Mine cuts fuel or ignition off at 7.6k

I've never had to buy conrods before, are they worth it?

Cheers


as already discussed... you have no need for aftermarket rods... they are an expense you can save on (or do without)... especially since you are limited to factory engine management


Image

stock management does pretty much keep you to 7500. That doesn't mean you can't run the cat cams... It just means that @ 7500 the power is still being made, or stated another way.... you will hit 7500rpm before you hit full power.
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

Alex170984
Club4AG Expert
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:08 am

Re: Future Build Components

Postby Alex170984 » Wed May 11, 2016 8:43 am

My free engine has had it's block completely stripped already.

My 42mm crankshaft has been measured and it's absolutely all spot on.

The left overs of the block, i.e. pistons, rods and crank are all spot on in terms of condition and tolerance. I am not using those conrods so they are being sold with the pistons and crank.

Is there any way of determining the CC of the head? I'm pretty sure like the block it has not been touched, i.e. shaved, so with the height of head, can that shed any light on it? Or do I need an engineer to do a volume test on it?

The head CC is going to determine what thickness my HG needs to be for my final CR which I hope to be around 11.5

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