7age? Questions

[Gabes86]

Hey guys so I'm still debating on if I should get a 4a or 3s and looking at motors I found this Frankenstein motor called the 7age so what I understand is it's a 7afe with a 4age head. So I have a few questions A.what numbers do these things produce like in whp (stock) b. Since it uses a 4a head (20v for example) it can rev high right? If so can it safely rev to 8k C. Is this this a more worth swap then the 3sge beams swap as for power to dollar ratio

[yoshimitsuspeed]

There is a range of ways to do a 7AFE. You could slap a 4A head on a 7A block and drive off but it would be a very disappointing motor. It would probably get outrun by stock 4AGEs.
The key to a 7A bulid is doing everything as right and as well as you can. This has all been covered pretty extensively.
This is a quick writeup I did to highlght the key points of a good 7A build as well as feature the components that we offer to make it more ideal. I'd say read through that, then spend a little while searching the google, the boards and whatnot seeing what others have done. Then when you have a good understanding of the basics you can start asking questions if you still have them.
For a basic but proper 7A bulid I'd say you will probably expect to spend about an extra $800 over the cost of rebuilding a 4AGE.

As for how it compares to the beams I can't really say because I am not fond of the Beams. I mean it would take some work to get an A series to match it but for the cost and time of the Beams I feel like there are much better options so if someone dumped a Beams on my lawn I'd sell it and put that money into something else.
With that said, comparing swap or build options is real hard to do. If you stumbled across a Beams in your town for $600 that may just be the best way to go. If you are looking at one online for $1200 plus shipping it might be a completely different story. It also depends on your skills and resources. If you are a welder and pick up that cheap Beams and can weld in your own motor mounts and have the time and dedication to doing the wiring yourself you might be able to do the Beams for not too outrageous a price. Or if you work in a machine shop or have connections on cheap good machine work the 7A might win by a landslide. It all depends on what you have, what you can get and what you can do but I still am unimpressed with the Beams.
Slap a turbo on a stock 4A and it wouldn't take much to get it killing Beams.

It would help if you mention what chassis you plan on putting it into as that will also play a big role on what you can do and how much it will cost.

[sirdeuce]

There are a few details that need attention when building a 7AGE. Many articles and build threads available to read. Generally, any 4A head will bolt to the 7A block. You do have match the pistons to the head chosen(oversimplified), get the right timing belt, deal with the cam timing issues (Yoshi), pay attention to the oil pump, decide on the con rods you'll use. Buncha stuff. I'd say the 7A would be an easier and possibly less expensive venture, and parts are easier to source, than the Beams. Good luck with your choice! Have fun!

[oldeskewltoy]

So I have a few questions
A.what numbers do these things produce like in whp (stock)
b. Since it uses a 4a head (20v for example) it can rev high right? If so can it safely rev to 8k
C. Is this this a more worth swap then the 3sge beams swap as for power to dollar ratio

a) depends on the builder... as there isn't any "stock" 7AGE, I'll assume that you basically mean using stock parts. It also depends on which set of "stock" parts you begin with. Making another assumption, using a 20V head/cams, it should put out about 150whp, about 10 less using stock 16V head/cams.

b) Stock 7AF internals were not designed to run to 8000. It might, but it also might go BOOM at any time up there. This is where a 7A build gets expensive VERY quickly. The internals are not as stout as the 4AGE internals. Therefore, if you want to keep the crank/rods stock, then you want to try and twist it less, even 7500 is a lot safer then 8000. You can get custom cranks/rods, to handle more rpm, but the cost gets $$$$$$ very fast.

c) Beams is 215hp (or about 185-190 @ the wheels), it comes with a transmission capable of handling the power(assuming you are running this in an AE86). It does weigh more, and is larger overall dimensions so it may be more difficult to fit. Price = cost of initial engine/trans, and then making it all fit - engine, trans(shifter), wiring.

To maximize the 7AGE you could use O/S valves, on a 16V head, get high lift, moderate duration cams and you can make good power as well as use the 7AF bottom end. Problem is O/S valve head costs $$, as do any cam upgrade... even "mild" cams....

[BoostJunky]

I have been thinking about the 7age for a long while now too. I have a blacktop in my current setup. Is it really worth the amount of $$ to build a mild 7age for the amount of torque gained?

[sirdeuce]

Chiming in. Building a 7AGE's monetary cost really is not much more than building a 4AGE. With the exception of getting a 7A block almost all the parts necessary to build the 7AGE are available in your 4AGE. It can be done. Cam timing and compression are the main areas of concern. Take this as an oversimplified description, I don't really have the time right now.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I have been thinking about the 7age for a long while now too. I have a blacktop in my current setup. Is it really worth the amount of $$ to build a mild 7age for the amount of torque gained?

It's kind of a hard question and really depends on where you are at currently.
If your motor needs to rebuilt and it will be out anyway I think it's totally worth it.
If your motor is healthy but you really want more power out of it then it's a viable option.
If your motor is recently rebuilt or already built with performance parts and you want more out of it then you are already behind the ball no matter which way you choose to go.
More details about your situation would help us advise but ultimately whether it's worth it will be up to you.

[BoostJunky]

I have been thinking about the 7age for a long while now too. I have a blacktop in my current setup. Is it really worth the amount of $$ to build a mild 7age for the amount of torque gained?

It's kind of a hard question and really depends on where you are at currently.
If your motor needs to rebuilt and it will be out anyway I think it's totally worth it.
If your motor is healthy but you really want more power out of it then it's a viable option.
If your motor is recently rebuilt or already built with performance parts and you want more out of it then you are already behind the ball no matter which way you choose to go.
More details about your situation would help us advise but ultimately whether it's worth it will be up to you.

Valid points. My current motor is strong. Slight hesitation due to cops I believe. The only thing I'd really want is to have more torque punch, hence the 1.8L idea. It seems to be quicker than most blacktops I seen around. I was thinking either go either haltech to eliminate the hesitation or run the proper distributor relocation.
Sorry to go offtopic a little.

[oldeskewltoy]

Slight hesitation due to cops I believe.

I was thinking either go either haltech to eliminate the hesitation or run the proper distributor relocation.
Sorry to go offtopic a little.

slight hesitation in a Blacktop could also be ITB synchronization, if the throttles open even slightly unevenly(meaning one or more opens before another) a slight hesitation is quite often the symptom.

[sirdeuce]

Back to cost of building a 7A v. 4A. Practically anything you'd put into your 4A, pistons, machining, bearings etc., will be necessary to build a 7A. Extra costs I've come across are the rebroached crank sprocket and the extension of the exhaust downpipe. For a mild build you can get by with the stock 7A rods, they're stronger than they look. A lot of people have used the stock rods successfully and reliably, even on boosted engines. I still opted for aftermarket rods. You'd use 4A pistons for the build, just have the pins captured by the con rod like the 7A does, with the stock rods of course. I had a set of stock 7A rods honed to allow the pin to float, no bushing, decided against that. Either press fit the pins or get aftermarket rods. Compression ratio can get high quick! A set of 10.3 4A pistons will net an 11.3 or higher ratio with a stock 4A gasket and combustion chamber. So the lower comp 4A piston, 9.4, can come in at 10.5 and up. Just a couple of things I've come across in the building of my 7A.

As for the gains? The longer stroke will make quite a noticeable difference in the low end and carry decent gains throughout the power band! Your torque and power peaks will come in lower than with the 4A with the stock components. If you want to go steps further the 7A can get some great output numbers! But if you want to try the "stock" route you can expect in the neighborhood of 120/120 peaks as opposed to the 98/115 of a stock USDM 4AGE. I know one guy that claims 140 wheel hp from a 7A with really mild cams, minor port work, 10.75 comp. ratio intake and exhaust mods.
Your output will depend on how little or how much you want to put into it.

[Gabes86]

Back to cost of building a 7A v. 4A. Practically anything you'd put into your 4A, pistons, machining, bearings etc., will be necessary to build a 7A. Extra costs I've come across are the rebroached crank sprocket and the extension of the exhaust downpipe. For a mild build you can get by with the stock 7A rods, they're stronger than they look. A lot of people have used the stock rods successfully and reliably, even on boosted engines. I still opted for aftermarket rods. You'd use 4A pistons for the build, just have the pins captured by the con rod like the 7A does, with the stock rods of course. I had a set of stock 7A rods honed to allow the pin to float, no bushing, decided against that. Either press fit the pins or get aftermarket rods. Compression ratio can get high quick! A set of 10.3 4A pistons will net an 11.3 or higher ratio with a stock 4A gasket and combustion chamber. So the lower comp 4A piston, 9.4, can come in at 10.5 and up. Just a couple of things I've come across in the building of my 7A.

As for the gains? The longer stroke will make quite a noticeable difference in the low end and carry decent gains throughout the power band! Your torque and power peaks will come in lower than with the 4A with the stock components. If you want to go steps further the 7A can get some great output numbers! But if you want to try the "stock" route you can expect in the neighborhood of 120/120 peaks as opposed to the 98/115 of a stock USDM 4AGE. I know one guy that claims 140 wheel hp from a 7A with really mild cams, minor port work, 10.75 comp. ratio intake and exhaust mods.
Your output will depend on how little or how much you want to put into it.

But doesnt the RPM suffer Im seeing that alot and I love high revving motors, will it rev to 7500 w mild cams

[Gabes86]

So I have a few questions
A.what numbers do these things produce like in whp (stock)
b. Since it uses a 4a head (20v for example) it can rev high right? If so can it safely rev to 8k
C. Is this this a more worth swap then the 3sge beams swap as for power to dollar ratio

a) depends on the builder... as there isn't any "stock" 7AGE, I'll assume that you basically mean using stock parts. It also depends on which set of "stock" parts you begin with. Making another assumption, using a 20V head/cams, it should put out about 150whp, about 10 less using stock 16V head/cams.

b) Stock 7AF internals were not designed to run to 8000. It might, but it also might go BOOM at any time up there. This is where a 7A build gets expensive VERY quickly. The internals are not as stout as the 4AGE internals. Therefore, if you want to keep the crank/rods stock, then you want to try and twist it less, even 7500 is a lot safer then 8000. You can get custom cranks/rods, to handle more rpm, but the cost gets $$$$$$ very fast.

c) Beams is 215hp (or about 185-190 @ the wheels), it comes with a transmission capable of handling the power(assuming you are running this in an AE86). It does weigh more, and is larger overall dimensions so it may be more difficult to fit. Price = cost of initial engine/trans, and then making it all fit - engine, trans(shifter), wiring.

To maximize the 7AGE you could use O/S valves, on a 16V head, get high lift, moderate duration cams and you can make good power as well as use the 7AF bottom end. Problem is O/S valve head costs $$, as do any cam upgrade... even "mild" cams....

So with the "Stock" 7ag I should be making in the neighborhood of 150whp and red line at 7500 ? and I dont understand the last paragraph

[yoshimitsuspeed]

7500 is considered quite save though I wouldn't go over that with the stock rods. But again I wouldn't waste my time with stock rods. With upgraded rods a number of people push over 8000 without issue and if you are going to do that you need to start upgrading other stuff as well.

[sirdeuce]

Another thing about the 7A. If you want the rev happy nature of the 4AGE you might well be disappointed. Even with cams. The 7A internals are HEAVY compared to the 4A. Even though it seems like a small increase in the crank throw, 4.25mm on the arm, the longer stroke will take away from that feel as well. Just touching on the things that can give you an initial feeling of disappointment. To counter the 7A's "sluggish feeling go light. A light flywheel will help tremendously! Without adding too much to the cost of the engine. The flywheel can be added later, but it would be better to have the machine shop balance all the spinning bits together. Remember, the reason peeps go to the 7A is for the grunt in the lower ranges. Get everything right and the 7A won't be disappointing at all.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

3.6 KG 212mm flywheel. This is the sample. The rest should be here in about 2 months.
https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/t31.0-8/12604847_966231336746425_2016244816699927951_o.jpg

[oldeskewltoy]

and there is always Toda..... 46,000 yen isn't bad.... http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product ... 4ag-3.html




Yoshi.... where do you drill in to that to balance it??

[sirdeuce]

On that pic Yoshi, how much more strength is gained by the extra six mounting screws?

[sirdeuce]

Outside of the plan of using stock parts. If the budget allows, mine doesn't, the crank can be lightened, aftermarket rods are typically lighter, light pistons and pins, light flywheel. Properly balanced and built a 7A should have the ability to rev like a late 4AGE. Especially with a well balanced head/cam combo.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

and there is always Toda..... 46,000 yen isn't bad.... http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product ... 4ag-3.html




Yoshi.... where do you drill in to that to balance it??

These will be somewhere in the $150 range to compete with the CBhaus flywheels I used to be able to get.

They come pre balanced at 10k RPM from the factory. Balancing marks are on the back face. Doesn't look like I got pics of the back side before I shipped them out to customers though.
These will also be 212mm instead of 200 to give more torque capability per clutch pressure.

While the Todas are a great product they are about $600 in the US and if you ship from Japan you will likely spend around that once it's landed.
If anyone wants a Toda I can get them as well. But I haven't found many willing to spend that on a flywheel. Plus I really like the idea of being able to run the bigger disk.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

On that pic Yoshi, how much more strength is gained by the extra six mounting screws?

As far as the flywheel it's self goes it won't do much for strength. Perhaps it will give a little more stability and resistance to harmonic deformation but probably not much. As far as strength from breaking bolts it should do quite a lot.
Many people think the bolts hold largely by shear strength. This is also the mindset that leads a lot of people to add dowels on the 6 bolt flywheels to increase shear strength. Dowels are not supposed to be used in this manner. They are really meant for alignment and should not have force applied to them. In single shear they will benefit very little if they do.
Bolts on the other hand get their strength from clamping force. What prevents the flywheel from spinning on the crank is the friction applied by the clamping force. Each 6mm bolt will add approx 3000 lbs of clamping force or a total of 18000 lbs more clamping force to the flywheel.
So it should do quite a lot actually.

2 more similar grade 10mm bolts would add 16,000 - 18,000 lbs more as well but the 6 6mm bolts should distribute the pressure more evenly.

[sirdeuce]

The question was actually a plug for your flywheel. Can you offer an option for a set of bolts with the proper shoulder and thread length? Since the crank isn't drilled already, maybe have one, space permitting, bolt drilled offset to lock in orientation to 1 and 4 TDC, like the SPG pattern used in VW crank/flywheel interface. Not that my 7A build will need it. I'm keeping it pretty mild.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

The question was actually a plug for your flywheel. Can you offer an option for a set of bolts with the proper shoulder and thread length? Since the crank isn't drilled already, maybe have one, space permitting, bolt drilled offset to lock in orientation to 1 and 4 TDC, like the SPG pattern used in VW crank/flywheel interface. Not that my 7A build will need it. I'm keeping it pretty mild.

I will have an add on kit for people who need the extra holding power. It will include bolts and a drill bushing that will fit in the 6mm holes. You would bolt it in place using the 6 main bolts and then use the drill bushing to locate the 6 smaller holes.
You would then tap them and install the supplied bolts.

I am unfamiliar with the SPG setup or what that would be trying to accomplish. Do you have a link that goes into some detail?

[jinx]

if you got 'beams' money, and are willing to go standalone. Why not boost the 4age ?
Easily double the torque at the tirees.... leave a 7AG or beams in the dust. Without the 'noise' as well
Add cams if u must see 8000 rpm
Sounds like you're after a hi-rev mormally aspirated powerplant tho.... for however u use the car

[sirdeuce]

SPG was big in the VW arena. Stock VW cranks had a single "gland nut" to hold the flywheel to the crank. To keep the crank and flywheel on the same page VW put 4 little dowels in place. 4 dowels failed miserably when you pumped up the engine. SPG made roller bearing cranks, among other things, for the VW and doubled the number of dowels. One dowel was offset to "key" the crank and flywheel so when they were mated they were good for life, maintaining their balance. Wish we had roller cranks for the 4AG....... I think SPG is now defunct.

[Deuce Cam]

if you got 'beams' money, and are willing to go standalone. Why not boost the 4age ?
Easily double the torque at the tirees.... leave a 7AG or beams in the dust. Without the 'noise' as well
Add cams if u must see 8000 rpm
Sounds like you're after a hi-rev mormally aspirated powerplant tho.... for however u use the car

I've seen these n/a 'noise' comments a few times from you haha. All good.

BUT, if you want a tame sounding 4a/74 with the tuned up n/a swag grab a high flow cat and brave cbe. You'll hear it but it's not loud, relatively. Some folks like a little rippage, at least (or a lot ).

[yoshimitsuspeed]

SPG was big in the VW arena. Stock VW cranks had a single "gland nut" to hold the flywheel to the crank. To keep the crank and flywheel on the same page VW put 4 little dowels in place. 4 dowels failed miserably when you pumped up the engine. SPG made roller bearing cranks, among other things, for the VW and doubled the number of dowels. One dowel was offset to "key" the crank and flywheel so when they were mated they were good for life, maintaining their balance. Wish we had roller cranks for the 4AG....... I think SPG is now defunct.

As long as the flywheel is balanced there wouldn't be any need to key it to the crank.

[Gabes86]

if you got 'beams' money, and are willing to go standalone. Why not boost the 4age ?
Easily double the torque at the tirees.... leave a 7AG or beams in the dust. Without the 'noise' as well
Add cams if u must see 8000 rpm
Sounds like you're after a hi-rev normally aspirated powerplant tho.... for however u use the car

lol my budget is like 4k and I just had someone tell me he spent 3.8k on the beams swap alone and I want a reliable racecar (Yes its kinda a oxy moron) but yeah and I cant get that out a 4a :/ and 7a is sounding like a big hassle and it doesn't even rev high ( soooooooooooooooooooooooo I'm probabbly gonna throw a 3tc in my 86 until I have beams money or find a perfect 4a

[sirdeuce]

3TC? Why? I know it's a great little engine, but I'd rip out a 2/3T to put in a stock 4AGE any day. Sacrifice a few RPM and drop in a stock V6. Bunch of power and reliable.

[Rogue-AE95]

I decided on a 7A-GE after having everything rounded up for a 4A-GE build. I'd rather get that extra torque & power than be concerned about high RPMs. At least with my driving, I'm rarely in high RPMs.

Cams, rods, pistons, machine work, aftermarket engine management, tuning... those will be the highest costs with any "built up" engine. Plan it out, accumulate parts, and do it right. I'm still halfway through those expensive things I listed. One small goal at a time.

[jinx]

checked out 1UZ corolla builds ?
Does it get any better for normally aspirated toyota power ?
Torque everywhere, so no need for hi RPMs
Is "hi-rev" more important than outright acceleration ? ....then cam-up a freshened balance 4AG and luv yourself