Stock blue 16v 4ag with itbs? Anyone have any results?

[Abe Cruz]

I'm sure this question has been asked but I've been looking and looking and cant seem to find a solid answer and I'm curious if there's any power gains just by doing this.

I have itbs from my previous 20v, I spun a bearing, Im goint to rebuild a 4ag with the help of my buddy.
He has a 16v blue top head, short block but no intake.

So we're going to put one engine together using my itbs, the 16v head he has, one of our two blocks, four out of the eight con rods we have and one crank out of the two that we have.

Already have 16v high comp pistons to use (the 10.3 ones), also going to use MS3, use a trd headgasket, either stock header or obx (whatever is easiest to come by), lightly clean up the head, and 100mm stacks ( I heard the longer stacks give you better midrange torque).

Well if anyone has any idea on any sort of gains using a stock blue top motor with itbs I would really appreciate it.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I'm sure this question has been asked but I've been looking and looking and cant seem to find a solid answer and I'm curious if there's any power gains just by doing this.

I have itbs from my previous 20v, I spun a bearing, Im goint to rebuild a 4ag with the help of my buddy.
He has a 16v blue top head, short block but no intake.

So we're going to put one engine together using my itbs, the 16v head he has, one of our two blocks, four out of the eight con rods we have and one crank out of the two that we have.

Already have 16v high comp pistons to use (the 10.3 ones), also going to use MS3, use a trd headgasket, either stock header or obx (whatever is easiest to come by), lightly clean up the head, and 100mm stacks ( I heard the longer stacks give you better midrange torque).

Well if anyone has any idea on any sort of gains using a stock blue top motor with itbs I would really appreciate it.

As long as you use tunable engine management it will be fine as long as you tune it right. The gains will come from the engine management, not the ITBs. In fact you may well loose some mid range with the ITBs. You may see some small gains up top from the ITBs but nothing you would feel in a blind test.
ITBs don't gain significant power over a properly sized single TB. The belief that they do is people wanting to justify the cost of installing them.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

If you are actually trying to make power I can help you with parts that will gain you a lot more power than ITBs ever will.
More compression and more cam will be the biggest affordable things you can do.

[Abe Cruz]

Thank you for the quick reply.

I have the 20v in parts right now and selling the head with cams. I'm keeping the itbs and since it seems like it would be a little on the lower budget to put together a 16v and use my itbs, I was wonder if there is any gains.

My goal is to maybe be get 110hp at the wheels using a sort of stock motor setup and with some bolt ons that will help reach that.

Megasquirt 3 is what I'll be using.

Also want to put the motor together with a bit more reliability in mind so an accusump will also be used along with some support on the bottom end.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Like I said above Run the ITBS if you want but don't expect any big gains from them. Cams and compression will get you the biggest gains for the least money. Something like this cam, http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/mg-102-272-cam and around 11 to 11.5:1 depending on how much monitoring you will have, your octane and how far you want to push it.
That along with a good tune on the MS3 and you should be doing a good bit better than 110 at the wheels.
Probably more in the 140-155 range.

[Ratranger]

I have a stock bigport low comp with silvertop ITBs and ms2 v3. The power feels different from stock, and the car might be a few tenths of a second faster 0-60 than it was. With higher compression it'll gain a little bit, but stock cams will still limit power. Without spending a fair bit of money it won't match a 20v.

[Abe Cruz]

I have a stock bigport low comp with silvertop ITBs and ms2 v3. The power feels different from stock, and the car might be a few tenths of a second faster 0-60 than it was. With higher compression it'll gain a little bit, but stock cams will still limit power. Without spending a fair bit of money it won't match a 20v.

Thank you for the info.
If I had a few more bucks I would like to use the tri flow colt cams but stock blue top cams will have to do. Like yoshimitsuspeed mentioned and yourself, spending a few bucks will be needed to match a stock 20v.

Later once I have this a together and running I'll update on here and my slow "build" thread thread lol.

Always appreciate the info and the help.

[Abe Cruz]

And yoshimitsuspeed, for now I'm just going to do some cleaning of the intake ports and new valve springs is what will be getting done to the head.
I think the maximum lift a stock 16v can handle is a 8.5 cam, the cams you suggested seem like they'll help achieve some great gains buuuuut....some head work will be needed.

To get my car up to par and driving I still need to get a few things like a radiator, have someone weld the rear arches because the previous owner did some custom work and cut waaaay to much leaving a nice big gap, a rebuilt diff would be nice to have, rear brake setup, fuel lines, gas tank, pay some backed up registration fees and the list goes on lol.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

If you want to get the most out of the motor you need to build the motor with your ultimate goal in mind.
Build the bottom end to work with the stock cams and if you decide to upgrade cams your compression will be lower than optimal and you won't get the performance out of it you could have if you built it all properly to begin with.
All you NEED for those cams to work great is better valve springs. Professional head work would improve on that but they will do well without it and still give you a lot more than an 8.5mm cam will.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17714

I understand what it's like to be restricted by your budget and you gotta do what you gotta do. I just want to make sure you understand the effects of that. Right now is the best opportunity you are going to have to do it right for the least amount of time and money.

[sirdeuce]

Years ago I tried the ITB set up with stock JDM MAP electronics, AE86. Got it running decently but lost a bit in the lower RPM range. Losses were probably due to the loss in runner length and the ECU was T-vis. I lost more than I did by just disconnecting the T-vis with the stock mani. Probably would have been better with the small port MAP electronics. It worked, sounded great, but it was a dog in traffic. If you plan to use the ECU from the 20v engine it might be better, not sure on that. What electronics are you using any way? Played with different cams and engine levels later. Found a good mid range cam or bigger and higher compression worked best, settled out on a set of TODA 272 x 9mm cams with 11-1 comp and an Autronic computer to keep everything in line. Lotsa fun!

[Abe Cruz]

Setup I have in mind and a few parts that I have are as follow:
- itbs ae101
- 100mm runners
- 16v blue top head (clean it up slightly)
- hks or new valve springs
- 10.3 pistons (paird w/ a trd head gasket hopefully bring the compression up just a hair)
- 7 rib block
- T3 itb adapter (on its way)
- Megasquirt 3 ecu (hopefully purchase this soon)

Ive been looking for setups and for the price of getting the 16v map setup is almost the same to getting a Megasquirt ecu. People have used the Megasquirt over and over and it seems to work just fine so that's what I'll be playing with once the motor is together.

It's still in the works of what to use but I'll keep an open mind and keep looking around for what to use.

Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it

[yoshimitsuspeed]

Setup I have in mind and a few parts that I have are as follow:
- itbs ae101
- 100mm runners
- 16v blue top head (clean it up slightly)
- hks or new valve springs
- 10.3 pistons (paird w/ a trd head gasket hopefully bring the compression up just a hair)
- 7 rib block
- T3 itb adapter (on its way)
- Megasquirt 3 ecu (hopefully purchase this soon)

Ive been looking for setups and for the price of getting the 16v map setup is almost the same to getting a Megasquirt ecu. People have used the Megasquirt over and over and it seems to work just fine so that's what I'll be playing with once the motor is together.

It's still in the works of what to use but I'll keep an open mind and keep looking around for what to use.

Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it

You don't have to look around. All you have to do is ask the right people lol but it sounds like you want to do it your way and find out how well it will work instead of taking experienced advice to get you the most bang for the least buck. So have fun experimenting and when you learn your lessons you can come back and try to teach the forums what many already know.

[Abe Cruz]

Thanks yoshimitsuspeed.
I know putting a proper 4ag setup costs more. I wanted to get cams and lots more goodies but I'm working with what I have already.

I've read the other posts on how to build a proper 4ag but I haven't seen what people have listed or put together a stock 16v with standalone. I really do appreciate all the advice and look forward to getting all the proper stuff for a nicely 4age build that works but I already sold my 20v ecu, already got rid of 20v parts so now I'm going to try a freshly rebuilt 16v.

Seems like oiling starvation is what happens to 4ags and rebuilding one with that in mind is why decided to go with a 16v. My buddy already has a complete head minus the intake with a spare block, I have a block and itbs. Neither of us have the electrical part for a 16v and people want $250+ for 30 year old wiring. So we'll apend a little more on an ecu that lots of people have used here on the forums, new wiring w/ new sensors and go about it that way. Just working with what I have and trying to go back to the track.

[sirdeuce]

Forgot to say that set up I ended up with worked well for what I wanted.
Definitely get the stand alone. Especially if you want any semblance of bottom end power. Try to get that compression up a bit and figure which cam will get you where you want to be. If you are worried about RPM limit due to oiling get the TODA pump gears, cheap insurance. Yoshi?? Your greatest restriction, by your description would be the head, but even just a cleanup of the ports will help. Don't forget to get a vacuum manifold. If you plan on using anything that needs a vacuum signal. Yoshi is right though, if you want to work it all yourself you'll need deep pockets and lots of time. The stock electronics will work, with the proper piggyback. But as you stated before, the MS will be more cost effective.

[familyman]

I want to do a mild build on my second gen 16V 4AG and see which cam was recommended by Matrix Garage. Is there a valve train setup recommended that would best compliment those cams? PN's would be greatly appreciated!

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I want to do a mild build on my second gen 16V 4AG and see which cam was recommended by Matrix Garage. Is there a valve train setup recommended that would best compliment those cams? PN's would be greatly appreciated!

This is a perfect spring for all our cams as well as any others up to about 10mm lift as long as you run stock diameter valves. Oversized need more spring.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/products/ma ... ve-springs
With something like that 272 you wouldn't need anything else as far as valvetrain goes. Oversized valves would help but probably not worth the expense. A good performance valve job using stock diameter valves will be worth the cost though.
There are many other details of the build that will need to be addressed but you only asked about the valvetrain so I'll leave it at that unless you have further questions.

[ae86cesar]

Good choice on the megasquirt 3 over stock electronics. I think you're on the right path with your build.

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