what 20v camshaft to use

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:07 am

So a friend of mine is building his 20v.

A bit about this build.
9.0:1 compression 81.5mm cp pistons
Brian Crower rods
Complete supertech valvetrain, 1mm oversize valves, guides, lock keepers, retainers etc..
Adjustbale cam gears
Complete with ARP studs
Precision 6262

Now we gotten to the question of what camshafts to use.
This is a engine build for drag racing purposes, not street or drift.
Looking to push it to the limit.

What would you recommend?

Thank you

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


hachirokkos
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:44 am

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby hachirokkos » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:43 pm

All the way to Toda mate.

http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc ... tegory=127

If you want to push to limits, get 304/9.2mm in
304/8.5 mm ex

Full racing spec, and "sweet range" at high rpm

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

User avatar
jondee86
Moderator
Posts: 2296
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:21 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby jondee86 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:09 pm

Image

Doubt that you would need that much duration with a turbo ;) But I could
be wrong, as that is getting to a fairly experimental part of the performance
spectrum. Maybe talk to these guys... http://tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm

Cheers... jondee86
Give a person a fish, they eat for a day. Suggest they search before posting, and they learn a skill for a lifetime.

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:04 am

hachirokkos wrote:All the way to Toda mate.

http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc ... tegory=127

If you want to push to limits, get 304/9.2mm in
304/8.5 mm ex

Full racing spec, and "sweet range" at high rpm

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I saw that those are the highest cams available. Would that really be recommended? I read online that having the highest is not always the best option because at some point higher won't make anymore hp.

jondee86 wrote:Image

Doubt that you would need that much duration with a turbo ;) But I could
be wrong, as that is getting to a fairly experimental part of the performance
spectrum. Maybe talk to these guys... http://tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm

Cheers... jondee86


Will do, thanks.

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.


hachirokkos
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:44 am

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby hachirokkos » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:58 am

Thats true, but for NA engines. With that comp ratio you are defenetly force inducting. So, i personally belive the best option are the cams i told you, for taking the engine to the limits. You can emai toda jap/us or kelford to get their opinion as well.

Also i think you will need uprated valve springs as well

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:00 am

I am the primary distributor of TED components so if you have any questions feel free to let me know.
I would definitely go with them over Toda. I generally would but for your particular application I think that TED will have much better grinds for you.
Which one will be best still depends on your goals. You say you want to push the build to the limits but that is still much too vague. Are we talking 400 HP? 600 hp? 800 HP?
What will your redline be? Once displacement is fixed RPM is really how you make power. Unfortunately once you hit about 8500 RPM your build starts getting more expensive.
You have covered most of the limiting factors but as long as you stay on the stock oil pump you probably won't want to go above 9k and that would be if you spent very little time up there. Even then there would be some increased risk of failure.
The Toda oil pump gear buys you a little extra margin and high RPM strength but I would say it's better suited for a dd/track build where you will be spending more time in the higher RPMs but still can't justify dry sump. For an actual racing motor the best answer is to go dry sump if you plan on going over 8500 RPM. If you don't plan on going over 8500 you won't really be pushing the limits.


If you can answer these questions and give me a better idea of your ultimate goals I can do more to recommend a cam or range of cams.

Make sure you do your own inspection and calculations on those CP pistons as their compression height is different than stock and CR should always be calculated by you.
Then double check your deck height when you assemble. Ideally you would want to choose your HG once you confirm deck height but at the very least calculate it all before ordering your HG. Also remember that you should use your HG to set the desired squish gap, not the desired compression ratio.

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:06 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I am the primary distributor of TED components so if you have any questions feel free to let me know.
I would definitely go with them over Toda. I generally would but for your particular application I think that TED will have much better grinds for you.
Which one will be best still depends on your goals. You say you want to push the build to the limits but that is still much too vague. Are we talking 400 HP? 600 hp? 800 HP?
What will your redline be? Once displacement is fixed RPM is really how you make power. Unfortunately once you hit about 8500 RPM your build starts getting more expensive.
You have covered most of the limiting factors but as long as you stay on the stock oil pump you probably won't want to go above 9k and that would be if you spent very little time up there. Even then there would be some increased risk of failure.
The Toda oil pump gear buys you a little extra margin and high RPM strength but I would say it's better suited for a dd/track build where you will be spending more time in the higher RPMs but still can't justify dry sump. For an actual racing motor the best answer is to go dry sump if you plan on going over 8500 RPM. If you don't plan on going over 8500 you won't really be pushing the limits.


If you can answer these questions and give me a better idea of your ultimate goals I can do more to recommend a cam or range of cams.

Make sure you do your own inspection and calculations on those CP pistons as their compression height is different than stock and CR should always be calculated by you.
Then double check your deck height when you assemble. Ideally you would want to choose your HG once you confirm deck height but at the very least calculate it all before ordering your HG. Also remember that you should use your HG to set the desired squish gap, not the desired compression ratio.


We opted to go with a oil pump from sq engineering, pressure up kit, ported and polished..
We decided to get that oil pump instead of going dry sump because we are also trying to acquire a dog box kit. Which as of now we got a quote of 4000 euro's.
So we are trying to push the limits on what we are currently building. Redline is going to be at 8500.
We have not decided yet on what headgasket to use as of now. I understand what your saying about compression ratio but I was just stating that info before anyone asks about the pistons.
Trying to get a few other things figured out first, like the camshafts and what gear ratios to choose from.
Looking to make upwards of 600-800hp, ofcourse depending on the outcome of it all .

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:05 pm

I just had a long talk with TED components trying to get a recommendation on a cam and it reinforced my thought that your parts list is pretty light for your goals.
Ideally it would be a huge benefit to increase displacement. This is going to help spool, response and HP/PSI. You could add a little more bore and quite a bit more stroke getting you into the 1.8 to 1.9+ liter range.
Personally I wouldn't use Brian Crower rods on this type of build. I love their stuff and sell a lot of their rods but for 150-400 hp builds. They should be able to take a lot more but for a high dollar high hp racing build I would go with something like Carrillo.
I can get all the components you would need to increase stroke and displacement but it sounds like you are already set on your build path so I will try to work within that as well as I can.
Considering all these things TED components has a 288 cam with 245 deg at .050 and 11.5mm lift. This is on the small side for your goals but anything much bigger will over stress your valvetrain. As it is I would suggest that you take those cam specs to Supertech and ask them if they think their components are a good match for your RPM, power goals, predicted boost etc. Even at this size it would be a good idea to go oversize lifters but much more than this and you would want to go oversized lifters and something like schmithelm springs which alone would be over a grand a set.

So if your goal is actually to see how far you can take your current parts list that's the cam I would recommend. If you are interested I can get a price and ETA for you.
If you actually want to get anywhere close to 800 hp it would probably be a good idea to reevaluate the parts list and spend a bit more money.

User avatar
oldeskewltoy
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 1781
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:44 am

Which 20V?

Either can benefit greatly from port work... especially on the exhaust side.....
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:52 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I just had a long talk with TED components trying to get a recommendation on a cam and it reinforced my thought that your parts list is pretty light for your goals.
Ideally it would be a huge benefit to increase displacement. This is going to help spool, response and HP/PSI. You could add a little more bore and quite a bit more stroke getting you into the 1.8 to 1.9+ liter range.
Personally I wouldn't use Brian Crower rods on this type of build. I love their stuff and sell a lot of their rods but for 150-400 hp builds. They should be able to take a lot more but for a high dollar high hp racing build I would go with something like Carrillo.
I can get all the components you would need to increase stroke and displacement but it sounds like you are already set on your build path so I will try to work within that as well as I can.
Considering all these things TED components has a 288 cam with 245 deg at .050 and 11.5mm lift. This is on the small side for your goals but anything much bigger will over stress your valvetrain. As it is I would suggest that you take those cam specs to Supertech and ask them if they think their components are a good match for your RPM, power goals, predicted boost etc. Even at this size it would be a good idea to go oversize lifters but much more than this and you would want to go oversized lifters and something like schmithelm springs which alone would be over a grand a set.

So if your goal is actually to see how far you can take your current parts list that's the cam I would recommend. If you are interested I can get a price and ETA for you.
If you actually want to get anywhere close to 800 hp it would probably be a good idea to reevaluate the parts list and spend a bit more money.


You do make some valid points,
I will get back to you on this, i'll see if we'll reevaluate the parts list first and let you know what we're going to do..

Thank you.

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:06 pm

SiLeNcEbOnE wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I just had a long talk with TED components trying to get a recommendation on a cam and it reinforced my thought that your parts list is pretty light for your goals.
Ideally it would be a huge benefit to increase displacement. This is going to help spool, response and HP/PSI. You could add a little more bore and quite a bit more stroke getting you into the 1.8 to 1.9+ liter range.
Personally I wouldn't use Brian Crower rods on this type of build. I love their stuff and sell a lot of their rods but for 150-400 hp builds. They should be able to take a lot more but for a high dollar high hp racing build I would go with something like Carrillo.
I can get all the components you would need to increase stroke and displacement but it sounds like you are already set on your build path so I will try to work within that as well as I can.
Considering all these things TED components has a 288 cam with 245 deg at .050 and 11.5mm lift. This is on the small side for your goals but anything much bigger will over stress your valvetrain. As it is I would suggest that you take those cam specs to Supertech and ask them if they think their components are a good match for your RPM, power goals, predicted boost etc. Even at this size it would be a good idea to go oversize lifters but much more than this and you would want to go oversized lifters and something like schmithelm springs which alone would be over a grand a set.

So if your goal is actually to see how far you can take your current parts list that's the cam I would recommend. If you are interested I can get a price and ETA for you.
If you actually want to get anywhere close to 800 hp it would probably be a good idea to reevaluate the parts list and spend a bit more money.


You do make some valid points,
I will get back to you on this, i'll see if we'll reevaluate the parts list first and let you know what we're going to do..

Thank you.


No problem
If you decide to upgrade let me know how far you want to take it. One very important thing at this level is pairing the right components. It's not just slapping random parts together and making crazy power. That is of course true for all builds but the more extreme it becomes the more critical it becomes.

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:52 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:No problem
If you decide to upgrade let me know how far you want to take it. One very important thing at this level is pairing the right components. It's not just slapping random parts together and making crazy power. That is of course true for all builds but the more extreme it becomes the more critical it becomes.


So you can get us the stroker kit? How about the dry sump kit?
And what are the prices.

SiLeNcEbOnE
Club4AG Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:02 pm

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby SiLeNcEbOnE » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:48 pm

So we decided to complete this build as it is, only thing we are going to swap is the rods.
We want to see how this works out before thinking of acquiring a stroker kit and going dry sump.
Going with MRP rods.

But we still need those cams, so let me know the price on those cams. So we can get that done.

Thank you for your time and help.

yoshimitsuspeed
Club4AG MASTER
Posts: 2084
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:18 pm
Contact:

Re: what 20v camshaft to use

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:26 pm

That cam is $900 + shipping. It would probably take about two weeks to make and ship.

shoot me an email if you want to order or if you have any questions.
http://www.matrixgarage.com/content/contact-us

Disable adblock

This site is supported by ads and donations.
If you see this text you are blocking our ads.
Please consider a Donation to support the site.



Return to “TECH: 4A-GE ENGINE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests