Max stock valve lift 16 valve

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Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:15 am

I wanted to look for updated experiences with high lift on stock cams. The most common limits you see mentioned for the 16 valve are 8.1mm to 8.3mm. In doing research though I came across a number of people running over 8.5mm and at least one running over 9mm for something like 5 years without issue.

So anyone here running more than 8.5mm lift? If so how long?

Has anyone killed stock valve springs running bigger cams?

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:46 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I wanted to look for updated experiences with high lift on stock cams. The most common limits you see mentioned are 8.1mm to 8.3mm. In doing research though I came across a number of people running over 8.5mm and at least one running over 9mm for something like 5 years without issue.

So anyone here running more than 8.5mm lift? If so how long?

Has anyone killed stock valve springs running bigger cams?


high lift cams on stock springs.... research valve spring coil bind as to the negative effects of running a "big" cam on a "small" spring
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:50 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I wanted to look for updated experiences with high lift on stock cams. The most common limits you see mentioned are 8.1mm to 8.3mm. In doing research though I came across a number of people running over 8.5mm and at least one running over 9mm for something like 5 years without issue.

So anyone here running more than 8.5mm lift? If so how long?

Has anyone killed stock valve springs running bigger cams?


high lift cams on stock springs.... research valve spring coil bind as to the negative effects of running a "big" cam on a "small" spring


I understand coil bind and the technical aspects to running the proper spring but as I said I am interested to hear real world issues or successes with more than the commonly accepted 8.2mm. Like I said I read about one person who claimed something like 9+ mm lift for more than 5 years without issues.
I am also very interested in reports on failures on stock springs be it broken springs, reduction in spring rate, or anything else.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:07 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I wanted to look for updated experiences with high lift on stock cams. The most common limits you see mentioned are 8.1mm to 8.3mm. In doing research though I came across a number of people running over 8.5mm and at least one running over 9mm for something like 5 years without issue.

So anyone here running more than 8.5mm lift? If so how long?

Has anyone killed stock valve springs running bigger cams?


high lift cams on stock springs.... research valve spring coil bind as to the negative effects of running a "big" cam on a "small" spring


I understand coil bind and the technical aspects to running the proper spring but as I said I am interested to hear real world issues or successes with more than the commonly accepted 8.2mm. Like I said I read about one person who claimed something like 9+ mm lift for more than 5 years without issues.
I am also very interested in reports on failures on stock springs be it broken springs, reduction in spring rate, or anything else.


so now peoples stories/"claims" mean more then the
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
When mathematicians, engineers and physicists


I'm confused... you can't tirade about one, and not have it come back to you concerning another.... just sayin....
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:13 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
so now peoples stories/"claims" mean more then the
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
When mathematicians, engineers and physicists


I'm confused... you can't tirade about one, and not have it come back to you concerning another.... just sayin....



I never said it meant more. That doesn't mean it's not valuable information.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:21 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:When mathematicians, engineers and physicists

[/quote]

I also need to add that in that thread people are failing to understand the fundamental concepts around a theory.
In this thread I am trying to compare the fundamental concepts that I understand to peoples real world experiences.

In that thread people are saying boats float because water is wet.

I am saying that I understand that boats float because they are more boyant than water but I would like to get real world input on whether peoples boats float at the same level math says they should and trying to learn why or why they may not in the real world.
Or in other words what variables may not be currently being accounted for.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:45 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Or in other words what variables may not be currently being accounted for.


fair enough.... just follow your own 4AG philosophy... much of what is out there is only partially true.....
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Boats don't float because they are more buoyant, they float because they displace water equal to or greater than their weight making them buoyant in the water.
One shot, one kill.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:03 pm

As for the lift vs. spring bind with stock springs, I've run the HKS 264 x 8.35mm cams without bind, but they did tend to float. Why chance it though? Insurance of the proper springs is cheap.
One shot, one kill.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:09 pm

sirdeuce wrote:As for the lift vs. spring bind with stock springs, I've run the HKS 264 x 8.35mm cams without bind, but they did tend to float. Why chance it though? Insurance of the proper springs is cheap.


Hmmm, that is interesting...... considering the HKS springs have lower seat pressure, and lower pressure @ bind then stock 4AG springs...
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:19 pm

sirdeuce wrote:Boats don't float because they are more buoyant, they float because they displace water equal to or greater than their weight making them buoyant in the water.


Fair enough. You got me there.


See look at how willing I am to admit when I am proven wrong or could have said something better. Crazy concept isn't it.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:20 pm

sirdeuce wrote:As for the lift vs. spring bind with stock springs, I've run the HKS 264 x 8.35mm cams without bind, but they did tend to float. Why chance it though? Insurance of the proper springs is cheap.


I'm curious how you determined they were floating?

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:05 pm

So I finally got around to measuring a spring today. I will measure more when I have time but here is what I found.
Total coil bind happened around 10.5mm
So when we talk about 8mm to 9mm cams we are well away from coilbind and instant failure or damage.

That also pulls us out of simple well duh territory and into theoretical what is an acceptable coil clearance.
Now in most articles you will read .060" or just over 1.5mm as being acceptable. That means that just as far as lift, bind and spring damage are concerned running a 9mm shouldn't be a problem.

Some sources discuss more refined builds using a clearance of .38mm or less. This makes things even less clear when it obviously depends on a lot more variables than we are likely to fill in to an acceptable level here.


So let me add one more question to my original questions.

Who here has actually measured stock valve springs?
Where did you find coil bind in relation to installed height?
How did you determine acceptable max lift?

As so ofter seems to be the case the results I have found are nowhere near the numbers I hear posted around.
Now there is some small chance this motor has aftermarket springs but being an otherwise stock 3 rib with stock cams I would find that very unlikely.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby sirdeuce » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:32 pm

Spring pressure is not the only way to control valve float, asymmetric coils to control harmonics and lower pressures have been used in engines for a while now.

Detecting valve float? I was just guessing it was what was causing the weird "rev limiter" and popping in the exhaust at around the red line. It was an old tired engine and I was just messing around with it before I changed it out. The symptoms went away with the stock cams.
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:42 am

sirdeuce wrote:Spring pressure is not the only way to control valve float, asymmetric coils to control harmonics and lower pressures have been used in engines for a while now.

Detecting valve float? I was just guessing it was what was causing the weird "rev limiter" and popping in the exhaust at around the red line. It was an old tired engine and I was just messing around with it before I changed it out. The symptoms went away with the stock cams.


Thanks for the input. If it ran properly up to that point valve float does sound quite possible.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:01 am

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:So I finally got around to measuring a spring today. I will measure more when I have time but here is what I found.
Total coil bind happened around 10.5mm


Not sure what you mean.... Total coil bind I've had Loynings measure OEM springs on a few occasions... they tell me coil bind is just over 8mm.

No offense... I trust them more than you
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:14 am

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:So I finally got around to measuring a spring today. I will measure more when I have time but here is what I found.
Total coil bind happened around 10.5mm


Not sure what you mean.... Total coil bind I've had Loynings measure OEM springs on a few occasions... they tell me coil bind is just over 8mm.

No offense... I trust them more than you


I mean all coils are touching.

So if coil bind is just over 8mm then according to the generally accepted formulas the biggest cam you can run on the stock springs is 6.5mm right?

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:29 pm

Oh, and for the record, the 'valve float' only occurred in 1 engine. I've used the 8.35mm lift in several stock engines without issue. I guess the one was tired and abused.
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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:40 pm

sirdeuce wrote:Oh, and for the record, the 'valve float' only occurred in 1 engine. I've used the 8.35mm lift in several stock engines without issue. I guess the one was tired and abused.


That is very helpful as well. I have always been told when asking if Poncams or Toda etc could run on stock springs and everyone has always stressed the fact that you can if the springs are healthy. It sounds like it's quite possible for the springs to fatigue and so running any of these cams with out of spec springs could result in float or other issues.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:45 pm

I hate it when Facebook is more successful than the forums lol.

So we have a member on the C4AG FB group who measured 9.61mm installed height to bind height.
Same person says they have a document from catcams saying that installed to bind is 9.7 and their max recommend lift is 9mm.
That closely parallels what I have been thinking.
I have taken a few more attempts to measure this spring and my number of 10.5 is a little high. After multiple attempts I have measured between 10mm and 10.3. To err on the safe side I would say 10mm on this spring.
That is also measuring to actual coil on coil contact on all coils whereas if you read about coil bind some will argue that bind happens when the spring rate becomes non linear which will happen sooner the total bind.

I would say that 9mm seems to be a pretty sensible limit as it most likely wouldn't be very sensible to go over that on the stock spring anyway lol.

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:50 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Or in other words what variables may not be currently being accounted for.


fair enough.... just follow your own 4AG philosophy... much of what is out there is only partially true.....


It looks to me like this statement must be at least partially true. :lol:

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Re: Max stock valve lift

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:49 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
yoshimitsuspeed wrote:So I finally got around to measuring a spring today. I will measure more when I have time but here is what I found.
Total coil bind happened around 10.5mm


Not sure what you mean.... Total coil bind I've had Loynings measure OEM springs on a few occasions... they tell me coil bind is just over 8mm.

No offense... I trust them more than you


I mean all coils are touching.

So if coil bind is just over 8mm then according to the generally accepted formulas the biggest cam you can run on the stock springs is 6.5mm right?


Lets call it "effective" coil bind instead of "total coil bind". In essence coil bind on a 4AG spring is when 2 active coils touch. This touching causes oscillations in the spring which is the problem.... additionally once the coils touch, the effective spring rate changes


Here are 3 springs... the Ted's/KK have 62# seat pressure, stock have 32#s, and the Toda are about 53#s.

Image


The Toda springs say (use to say) that they are good to 10.5mm lift

Image
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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:13 pm

BUT....... to avoid heated debate and conflict... I will bring a Toda, an HKS, and a stock spring to Loynings later this week, test them and report back...... :D
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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:10 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:BUT....... to avoid heated debate and conflict... I will bring a Toda, an HKS, and a stock spring to Loynings later this week, test them and report back...... :D


It would be very helpful if you could document what point and how bind is determined and then figure out what they consider safe distance from that. Also let us know what they use for free length, installed length intake and ex and bind.

I watched this spring very carefully and they progressively made contact from the outside of the spring inward. At 9.5mm lift there were only a few coils in the middle that were not fully compressed but none of them were touching at all. At 10mm it's tight but I could still see daylight between the remaining uncompressed coils.

I learned a little bit more today. It looks like the cat cams page that was referred to above has a different installed length for intake and exhaust and the spec above is theirs for the intake. I will admit I thought they were the same and hadn't checked that yet so I will be doing a little more research on this.
Now they do show only 9mm bind and 8.3mm max lift on the exhaust so I need to look into this a little more but I took my installed height measurement off of an exhaust valve to get the numbers that I got.

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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:12 pm

Another thing that could play a role as well is spring fatigue. If a spring is on it's way out it's very likely it would have active coils bind sooner than a healthy spring.

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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby sirdeuce » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:19 pm

I know it's a bit skewed from subject, but I always kept the lift under 8.5mm on the fear of spitting the shim out. So what would be the lift limit be on the stock shim/bucket combo? I've recently looked at the 1SZ-FE buckets as an option for higher lifts. Not that I'll be building any engines more than warm stock any more, but I thought I'd thow it out there.
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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:13 pm

sirdeuce wrote:I know it's a bit skewed from subject, but I always kept the lift under 8.5mm on the fear of spitting the shim out. So what would be the lift limit be on the stock shim/bucket combo? I've recently looked at the 1SZ-FE buckets as an option for higher lifts. Not that I'll be building any engines more than warm stock any more, but I thought I'd thow it out there.


I have recently gotten some interesting input on this.
I was talking to TED Components and he says that generally speaking spitting shims is a sign that the buckets are too loose in the bores. There may be exceptions like huge lift but generally it sounds like with most cams if your buckets fit tight in their bores this shouldn't be an issue. I have tried to get numbers on what those limits might be and that hasn't been so easy lol but it's not something most of us should need to worry about.

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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby Alex170984 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:44 am

I am running 8.5/9.0 on mine.

Didn't have any issues for 1300 miles until the cambelt snapped which wasn't camshaft related.

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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:46 am

Alex170984 wrote:I am running 8.5/9.0 on mine.

Didn't have any issues for 1300 miles until the cambelt snapped which wasn't camshaft related.


Thanks for the report.
Was the 8.5 on the intake or exhaust? I assume intake since you put it first but wanted to make sure.

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Re: Max stock valve lift 16 valve

Postby totta crolla » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:34 pm

9.3mm lift Catcams and HKS springs. Lightweight 'underbucket shim' cam followers. (Not Toyota cam followers)
No binding or valve float on an engine that turns to 8500rpm

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