7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Oggy
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7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby Oggy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:15 pm

Just a random idea, feel free to explain why it won't work. But, I've been thinking about sequential ignition with a standalone ECU for the 20v. I know later 7afe's has a crank angle sensor, and the mount for that sensor was part of the oil pump housing. The blocks on the 7a and 4a are the same so the oil pump should bolt up.

I haven't gotten much farther than that. Are the differences between the pump housings internally? Could the 7a one be modified to match the 20v one? What about the cam belt pulley with the teeth for the sensor, will the 7a one bolt up? I believe the 20v hydraulic belt tensioner and the sensor would be fighting to occupy the same space, so could the 7a tensioner be used? Anything else I'm missing? (I'm SURE there is, this is just a random thought at this point.)

I assume this has been tried before, I just haven't found much about it.

Thanks

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:42 am

Oggy wrote:Just a random idea, feel free to explain why it won't work. But, I've been thinking about sequential ignition with a standalone ECU for the 20v. I know later 7afe's has a crank angle sensor, and the mount for that sensor was part of the oil pump housing. The blocks on the 7a and 4a are the same so the oil pump should bolt up.

I haven't gotten much farther than that. Are the differences between the pump housings internally? Could the 7a one be modified to match the 20v one? What about the cam belt pulley with the teeth for the sensor, will the 7a one bolt up? I believe the 20v hydraulic belt tensioner and the sensor would be fighting to occupy the same space, so could the 7a tensioner be used? Anything else I'm missing? (I'm SURE there is, this is just a random thought at this point.)

I assume this has been tried before, I just haven't found much about it.

Thanks


both 7A and 4A pumps have this... 96 I believe is the year.

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:13 pm

Most people go out of their way to run the later 4A pump when possible on 7A swaps because the 7A and early 4A pumps are both lower volume.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby sirdeuce » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:07 pm

I found the 7A pump oil port to block interface to be higher than the 4A. I went with the 7A pump on my 7AGE build for that purpose. To use the 4A pump on the 7A block without the possible restriction you would need to 'oval' the ports in the block and pump. It's a simple mod to run the combination, but something to consider when using pump/block combinations. On my next 7AGE build I plan to use a TOGA high volume pump though. I couldn't say anything about the flow volume as Yoshi mentioned, but I'd look into that for your pump decision. I know I will. Thanks Yoshi!
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yoshimitsuspeed
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:13 pm

sirdeuce wrote:I found the 7A pump oil port to block interface to be higher than the 4A. I went with the 7A pump on my 7AGE build for that purpose. To use the 4A pump on the 7A block without the possible restriction you would need to 'oval' the ports in the block and pump. It's a simple mod to run the combination, but something to consider when using pump/block combinations. On my next 7AGE build I plan to use a TOGA high volume pump though. I couldn't say anything about the flow volume as Yoshi mentioned, but I'd look into that for your pump decision. I know I will. Thanks Yoshi!


I just did a lot of research in prep to try to pick up the Toga pumps to offer to my customers. After searching I decided I would not sell these to my customers or run one on my build.
If you haven't seen this thread check it out. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12527

Other than that I would just recommend doing a good bit of research on them before deciding. The reports I have found make them sound pretty shady.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:28 pm

The 4AGE gear has 18 teeth, the 7A gear has 24 teeth so there is no way to use the 7AFE crank sprocket with the 4AGE cam gears. You would need a custom crank gear or a way to attach a custom trigger wheel to the 4AGE crank gear.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby burdickjp » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:47 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:The 4AGE gear has 18 teeth, the 7A gear has 24 teeth so there is no way to use the 7AFE crank sprocket with the 4AGE cam gears. You would need a custom crank gear or a way to attach a custom trigger wheel to the 4AGE crank gear.


The 7A gear is actually thicker as well, so the trigger wheel can be installed on the back of the 4A crank gear. The OEM 7A trigger wheel is 36-2, but I think it'd be nice to cut out some 36-1 gears and position them similar to Ford EDIS wheels so as to make them compatible for the purpose of either running EDIS if you'd like, or being able to configure it in an aftermarket EMS.
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:46 pm

If I can get my CNC dialed in tight enough I have been wanting to machine chromoly 7AGE crank gears instead of rebroaching stock ones. If I can get to that point it would be easy enough to machine a gear with a trigger wheel on the back. Then the only question is what would it take to get the high volume gears in the 7A pump? I was thinking about taking my 4A and 7A pumps apart today to compare but I ran out of time.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby burdickjp » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:33 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:I was thinking about taking my 4A and 7A pumps apart today to compare but I ran out of time.


I had the same thought and ran out of time about 3 years ago...
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oldeskewltoy
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:10 am

1996 4AF and 7AF use the same oil pump internals... 15103-15020

15103-15020 is the same as in the AE92 (pre OBD).

1984 AE82 4AC oil pump internals are completely different.......
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:32 pm

The 7A internals are identical to the what I want to call rev 2 4A oil pump, it has the round gears but only 7.5mm and not the 9.5 thickness of the rev3 pump.
Unfortunately I just sold all my opt-036 pumps which should be rev3 so I can't compare but I will when I get one in.
If the other dimensions are the same it wouldn't be too hard to machine out the 7A housing deeper to fit the rev3 gear.
For most applications however I would say the 7A pump should be plenty unless you plan on running very loose clearances and or squirters.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby Ke25Punk » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:05 am

Hi guys. Im actually looking around for a 7afe trigger wheel same as in photo above
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/ ... M_1498.jpg

Where would I get one?

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gotzoom?
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby gotzoom? » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:58 pm

I'm using an OBD2 4AFE oil pump with crank trigger.

I made one of these:
Image

It presses on the stock 4AGE timing gear, then you tack weld it in place.

The result:
Image

And the oscilloscope output:
Image

I made a few extra of the trigger wheels. $30 shipped in the continental US if you want one. My trigger wheel has all 32 teeth, so you can cut off whatever amount you want for your application.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby Ke25Punk » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:40 pm

I found a factory solution using 7afe late model carina. I bought it from amayama.com

I'm running an 8 port FE head with machined out ports. I think squish area/valve n port angle should win over GE head. If only I could find some big cams for FE

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:45 am

Ke25Punk wrote:I found a factory solution using 7afe late model carina. I bought it from amayama.com

I'm running an 8 port FE head with machined out ports. I think squish area/valve n port angle should win over GE head. If only I could find some big cams for FE


I can get you cams for the FE. I think my guy might have to regrind them from OEM cores but I'd have to check on that. Whatever the case he has done FE cams for some very high hp builds.

I have thought of doing an FE head build. I just really wish it were easier to have independent control over cam timing.
Other than that it shouldn't be hard to make it perform as well or better than a GE head in many applications.

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:30 pm

Ke25Punk wrote:I found a factory solution using 7afe late model carina. I bought it from amayama.com

I'm running an 8 port FE head with machined out ports. I think squish area/valve n port angle should win over GE head. If only I could find some big cams for FE


chamber smaller too... 30cc vs 16V "G" chamber's 36cc. Valves could use a bit of improvement... OH... and don't forget the crappy #1 exhaust port (#2 valve bowl to port) SUCKS HORSE HOCKEY!!!
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby sirdeuce » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:42 pm

Ke25Punk wrote:I found a factory solution using 7afe late model carina. I bought it from amayama.com

I'm running an 8 port FE head with machined out ports. I think squish area/valve n port angle should win over GE head. If only I could find some big cams for FE



Look at CAT cams.
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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby Deuce Cam » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:56 pm

Very clever gotzoom!

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby demby123 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:30 pm

I've been thinking about this lately as a solution to my timing issues. I will be installing MS2 fuel injection soon and I want a stable crank trigger that doesn't require running without lower timing covers or single row oem crank pulleys. I'm a bit concerned about running a 4afe/7afe pump on my 4age though, I know pressure should be the same but is the volume comparable? If not are gears from a 4age smallport interchangeable between housings? I'm going to the junkyard this weekend so i'll be taking measurements and checking out the differences. I might just buy an obd2 4/7afe pump just to get some dimensions...

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Re: 7afe Oil Pump + 20v ?

Postby jondee86 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:56 pm

gotzoom? wrote:My trigger wheel has all 32 teeth...

@gotzoom? That ^^^^ had me worried for a moment, but then I figured typo :)

A few questions...
- Is that pump a straight bolt-on to a 16V 4AGE ?
- And after you installed it did you see any difference in your oil pressure ?
- Does the bottom 4AGE timing belt cover still fit without mods ?
- Is that the stock Toyota 4AFE VR sensor ?
- Still got any of those toothed wheels ?

I will most likely be looking for a crank trigger solution later in the year, and
being able to locate the sensor out of harms way would be an advantage. As
the engine will be apart for a rebuild, it would be a simple matter to change
the pump assembly over.

Cheers... jondee86
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