OST-022: New Numbers.....

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oldeskewltoy
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OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue May 21, 2013 2:49 pm

Well... OST-022 represents a few new numbers.... The first one is 6.... for 6 cylinders :eek: And THAT is why this thread is in Inline 6's and V8's (JZ, G, UZ etc...) and Big Sed ans

My client has asked me to do a bit of porting on a 7MG head. It had the "typical" head gasket failure back by #6, so before he re-assembled it, he asked me to see what I can do.......

Now more numbers....
.10 - 62.66, .15 - 92.20, .20 - 111.38, .25 - 123.08, .30 - 127.93

Confused yet?

How about another set of numbers......
.10 - 73.83, .15 - 107.50, .20 - 135.85, .25 - 155.95, .30 166.40

So what do all those numbers mean??? :D



What... no photos? What's an OST engine build without photos????? Well... another "new" number... 7 as in Windows 7... as in Windows 7 doesn't support MS Photo Ed anymore :(
MS Photo Ed was a very simple capable photo editing/cropping program that I've used FOREVER.... for this... I MAY have a solution, but I won't know till tonight.



MORE to come....... :ugeek:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby 8Ton » Tue May 21, 2013 5:18 pm

#=flow at lift?

and I would suggest 'Gimp' for photo editing on the basis that it is free, and works OK for cropping, but it is a bit awkward for much else.
Can't wait to see what you come up with!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Tue May 21, 2013 5:55 pm

http://www.gimp.org/

It is a massively capable program nearly on par with photoshop so it does take some learnin to get it to do stuff but as you learn it you can do a lot.
Figuring how to crop, draw arrows, boxes, and add text can all be learned in minutes.

One thing that I remember being a nightmare to figure out was how to do a box or shape around something although the solution is incredibly simple.

To crop select the box tool from the menu and create a box around what you want to crop. Then under image click on crop to selection.
Next to make a box around something use the circle or box tool to select the area you want a box around then click the tool that looks like a paint bucket called the fill tool. Click the color swatch below that and pick the color you want to use and then click inside the box. This now fills the box the color you chose. Next click select at the top of your page and click on shrink and pick how many pixles you want your box to be. Next hit delete. This will delete the center of the box and leave you with a border around the outside. Seems kind of like a long way to go about doing it but it's actually quick and effective once you get used to it.
For things like arrows and lines you can use the pencil or paint brush. Use select to make a line from point a to point b and use control to give you basic angle snaps.
Text is easy. Just click the A in the tool bar on the left and then select an area where you want the text.

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed May 22, 2013 10:39 am

8Ton wrote:#=flow at lift?


yep :mrgreen:


XNC wrote:First set is inches of valve lift @ cfm for intake and second set is for exhaust?


You are right... kinda... you have the intake and exhaust reversed. Intake numbers are always greater then exhaust.

Running a 7MG head on a flow bench. As you see the 4AG valve tool works PERFECTLY... thank you MACK Engineering ;)

Image
checking the intake side...

Image
and the exhaust side...

Btw... if you haven't figured it out yet... I'm NOW offering flowbench services....... @ $40 per hour.

All heads from now on will have one port checked(no extra charge) throughout the entire porting process so the client, and the rest of my readers can SEE the results. :geek:


Image

Above is a 2 panel showing the overall head - intake and exhaust, chamber view as well as the top of the head.


Image

Lets take a more isolated view of the intakes....

Can you see what I see??

What do I see?

Why do I think it is a problem??



More to come :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 23, 2013 10:11 am

from another forum wrote:Intake valves are shrouded as hell?

Subscribed to see what you do with this, especially in the chambers :-)

I would STRONGLY suggest having it hardness tested before you put too much work into it. 7m heads go soft as buggery and from there will keep blowing gaskets no matter what. If he is pouring some decent $$ in you would want to start with 90-100rc so it has a few years of hard work left in it.

Also you can see at the back of #6 where they missed a water jacket in the head (wonder why they all blow #6, duh). Easy fix with a small drill bit while you're at it, just go straight down and it will come out in the main water passage.


Thank you!.... I've shared what you said with the owner... do you have a view showing the drilled water passage?



Now as to what I see.... let me show you a bit closer.... here are the 6 intake ports up close

Port #6
Image

Port #5
Image

Port #4
Image

Port #3
Image

Port #2
Image

Port #1
Image



Is it any clearer?? What bothers me about these ports??


More to come.... ;)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 23, 2013 10:58 am

from another forum wrote:
it would be an easier thread to follow if you just say what you are thinking ...




party pooper.... (j/k)

ok... here is what I see... I see fuel tracks in the port ceiling. This means the injectors/ports are NOT delivering fully atomized fuel. A substantial amount of the fuel is contacting the port roof, and injector port, this is not good for emissions, or power. Ideally the fuel is not dripping from the port roof........


more to come........ :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 23, 2013 11:32 am

For some interesting 7M cross sectional photos - http://www.ma70.ru/head-7m-gte-toyota-separate/ I've picked a few out to post here....



Image

Image

Image

Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Thu May 23, 2013 3:53 pm

Am I right in thinking one of the most important places to remove material will be on that sharp radius on the floor approaching the valve? Seems like a much larger radius with a smoother transition to the flat would help things a lot. On the intake side it is even much sharper than the valve angle. Seems like it could be straightened out quite a bit. It also gives a little steeper port angle which according to the 20V Toyota decided was better for performance motors.

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 23, 2013 4:38 pm

yoshimitsuspeed wrote:Am I right in thinking one of the most important places to remove material will be on that sharp radius on the floor approaching the valve? Seems like a much larger radius with a smoother transition to the flat would help things a lot. On the intake side it is even much sharper than the valve angle. Seems like it could be straightened out quite a bit. It also gives a little steeper port angle which according to the 20V Toyota decided was better for performance motors.

Each individual head has to be ported based on the casting errors of that particular head. In showing these cross sectional views, I'm showing some of the problem areas I'll need to contend with...


The floor of the port(lower pressure) is not as important as the roof of the port(higher pressure)... BUT smooth transitions are the call so yes, the floor of the exhaust port can be improved to aid flow... as I did here on this 4AG exhaust port
Image
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby yoshimitsuspeed » Fri May 24, 2013 2:10 pm

The pressure at the top of the port however should be effected by the pressure at the bottom of the port. If you can increase flow and reduce pressure at the bottom of the port that should relate to reduced pressure at the top of the port as well.

Here is a pic of what I was talking about. The straight lines are parallel with the valve seats. The other straight line on the intake side is perfectly perpendicular to the valve seat. This means that the port goes past 90 degrees in reference to the valve.
The curves are made tangent to the intake port and perpendicular to the valve face. I would think this or something similar would be a much better shape and would allow much cleaner airflow.
Image

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 24, 2013 3:25 pm

I concur, each head must be examined on its own issues. Remember.. this is a mass produced head, 1000s a week were made, port to bowl alignment can shift significantly, and so each head is different.

One other point... looking at a cross section only provides SOME of the information. the ports/bowls must be viewed as a whole to fully understand.



edit - One other point about your photo... the view you chose is not through the center of the bowl, but slightly offset, the lines you drew are not on the valve center lines...
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri May 24, 2013 4:38 pm

Here are the 6 intake ports... cleaned, and ready........ Oh, for point of fact, the 7MG head groups the intake ports together in 3 groups of 2. Each grouping has a right favored, and left favored port shape.

#1
Image

#2
Image

#3
Image

#4
Image

#5
Image

#6
Image


The first thing I see is the gradual shift the seat bores are at as compared to the bowl placement. Notice how the bores shift and go from a left shift to a right shift on a gradual basis as you proceed from #1 thru #6.

The next thing I see is this amorphous blob at the edge of the injector port. It appears as if it was designed as a port divider, but it acts more like a damn then a divider...


Anyone remember OST-011? Grunts head(4AFE)? It also had an amorphous blob in each port before I tended to them.....

Image


Besides the blob... the guide bosses are poorly shaped, progression from port to bowl is just nasty.......


Tomorrow I'll post up some exhaust port views, and see where we can improve things on the out going side of the cylinder head

More to come....... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun May 26, 2013 12:40 pm

Nearly forgot this..........

Image



....... and now for more numbers..........


.10 - 64.10, .15 - 95.97, .20 - 113.73, .25 - 124.32, .30 - 129.58

Exhaust.....
Image



.10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37

Intakes
Image




Now lets take a look @ the differences.....



Exhaust:
Before cleaning - .10 - 62.66, .15 - 92.20, .20 - 111.38, .25 - 123.08, .30 - 127.93
After cleaning - .10 - 64.10, .15 - 95.97, .20 - 113.73, .25 - 124.32, .30 - 129.58


Intake:
Before cleaning - .10 - 73.83, .15 - 107.50, .20 - 135.85, .25 - 155.95, .30 - 166.40
After cleaning - .10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37

There is improvement... but remember I have cleaned more then just the ports... I've also cleaned the valves, removing deposits from the back of the valves.

One thing is clear... the exhaust side shows only minimal improvement, almost within a tolearnace factor, while the the intake side... on the other hand.... seems to show substantial improvement.....


Now... for some numbers my client found.....

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?54-7M-Cylinder-Head-Flow-Numbers&p=300&viewfull=1#post300

link from above wrote:Stock:

Intake
lift-flow

.100-77.4 cfm
.150-113.9 cfm
.200-141.4 cfm
.250-162.8 cfm
.300-176 cfm
.350-179.6 cfm
.400-179.6 cfm
.450-180 cfm

Exhaust
lift-flow

.100-60.4 cfm
.150-93 cfm
.200-112.9 cfm
.250-123.2 cfm
.300-127.8 cfm
.350-130.7 cfm
.400-133.2 cfm
.450-133.2 cfm


Well... at least my numbers seem to compare similarly to Defiant 7M's....


The head likely has a few out of tolerance valve guides(4 to 6)... I'll know more Monday afternoon...


More to come....... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue May 28, 2013 12:54 pm

The head is off getting it's 3 angle. Before I let it go, I took a few more pics... this time the exhaust.....

#1
Image

#2
Image

#3
Image

#4
Image

#5
Image

#6
Image


These will get a more gradual taper to them, along with the bowl/seat work, and they will get a bit of work along the splitter.....


More to come...... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu May 30, 2013 11:57 am

Actually... I'm still waiting on a pressure test of the head BEFORE the 3 angle. Once the pressure test is verified good, we will commence with the 3 angle.

During dis-assembly I checked for bad guides, either too tight, or too loose. I had thought I had found 3 loose guides (where the valve was too loose in its guide). The suspect valves/guides were all on the exhaust side. I had the guides checked prior to the pressure check and all the guides are usable* - good news for my client as it saves him hundreds of dollars.

* - the worst guides measured out to about .0017" of "play". That is well within the standard of a 4AG valve stem, but is it the same for the 7MG head? Well, having the 7MG engine manual(pdf), they are also well within specifications.


More to come.... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:58 pm

oldeskewltoy wrote:Actually... I'm still waiting on a pressure test of the head BEFORE the 3 angle. Once the pressure test is verified good, we will commence with the 3 angle.


Well... the pressure test went fine.. and the 3 angle is now complete....... apologies for the delays... but this is racing season and Loynings is very busy... 8-)

I've not yet had the head surfaced, that will be the last task once all the porting work is accomplished. Below is the head showing its 3 angle, and the valves are showing their back cut... albeit the exhaust valve back cut is barely 1mm in width, while the intake valve shows a much more substantial back cut.

Image

This is #5 chamber... the same chamber I've been doing all the flowbench work on. This chamber will be the exhibit.. after each process I'll be getting #5 back on the flowbench so we can follow the progress.


Image

....... and a bit closer we can see the back cuts, and we can see the 3 angle on the seats...





Image

Before I work the chambers, I'll take a volume measurement and then massage the chambers. All of the machining marks in the chamber will be smoothed, the chamber shrouding around the intake ports will be tapered a bit to improve flow past the valves. I'm not sure how good your eye is... but if you look at the chamber shrouding on the intake valve closest to you... you may see an imperfect arc around the valve... This will be smoothed and blended as well....



The next step is a bit more flowbench time to see if nicely machined seats, along with a 3 angle, AND back cut valves improve flow...... remember no porting as of yet.



More to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:24 am

More new numbers........


I'll begin with the exhaust side.... 64.0, 95.2, 115.3, 125.8, 130.8 and posting the earlier numbers.... .10 - 64.10, .15 - 95.97, .20 - 113.73, .25 - 124.32, .30 - 129.58

All are more or less inline with the numbers prior to the 3 angle. The tiny back cut doesn't look like it did anything... the numbers just don't show it..........



Now for more numbers.......


90.9, 130.7, 166.16, 191.52, 205.66... :o

I don't need to post the previous numbers, but I will below, to know we hit the ball clear out of the park with this 3 angle and back cut...... I also checked the numbers TWICE and they came up less than 2% different, so I know the newest intake numbers are genuine.....

For comparison......
the old - .10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37
the new - .10 - 90.90, .15 - 130.70, .20 - 166.16, .25 - 191.52, .30 - 205.66

just... WOW...

A simple backcut, on the back of the 7MG intake valves, along with a 3 angle... really allows far more air flow... So... for those building 7MG engines... get those intake valves back cut!!!!


MORE to come........ :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:56 pm

from another forum wrote:are you sure its not just from cleaning all of the carbon crap and sludge from the valves and intake ports? the pcv system really gums up the intake side. i doubt that very mild back cut of the valves increased the flow over 25cfm at .3in lift all on its own.

I actually have 3 sets of numbers now... and the intake side did improve substantially once it was cleaned....


Intake:
Before cleaning - .10 - 73.83, .15 - 107.50, .20 - 135.85, .25 - 155.95, .30 - 166.40
After cleaning - .10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37


I checked these numbers twice... could I be mistaken.... yep... I could be... but the fact that the exhaust side didn't improve... and I tested those at the same time I did the current intake readings... for now I'm going to trust that the intake back cut and 3 angle are showing real(genuine gains).

I'll know more once I begin porting... (if the numbers remain.... :roll: )
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:15 pm

William(original doubter of my numbers)... you KEEP ON QUESTIONING everything that doesn't make sense... because it just didn't make any sense to me either. The exhaust numbers are so there... so how could I have screwed up the intake side so seriously........???

SIMPLE... I didn't change the program to read the intake side. I had changed all the connections, but failed to switch the software from reading exhaust to reading intake.... :oops:


The CORRECTED numbers........ .10 - 79.42, .15 - 113.57, .20 - 144.88, .25 - 166.91, .30 - 179.37

Intake:
Before cleaning - .10 - 73.83, .15 - 107.50, .20 - 135.85, .25 - 155.95, .30 - 166.40
After cleaning - .10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37




so now it all seems pretty interesting as the numbers are climbing. At least with the corrected numbers the actual porting should show up with a bit more ease....

Thank you once again. This is new equipment... and the only way I'll get proficient is to use it. I thank you for keeping me honest.... ;)
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:24 pm

With the head off the bench... but prior to disassembling #5 for porting, I took a measurement of the combustion chamber volume...

Image



I got a volume of 39cc.

Image

Not being as familiar with the 7MG head, as I am with the 4AG head, I do not know if this is standard volume. BUT... we have what we have... I'll do some chamber work, get another measurement and calculate how much the head will need to be machined to retain the 39cc volume


More to come....... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby 8Ton » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:53 am

Hurry up already and post some more pictures!!!! I know us 4cyl guys aren't giving much love on this one, but always interesting to see your work.

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:02 pm

8Ton wrote:Hurry up already and post some more pictures!!!! I know us 4cyl guys aren't giving much love on this one, but always interesting to see your work.



There are many things the 4AG and the 7MG share.... unfortunately for this test...... cylinder bore isn't one of them


Image

thank you gentlemen....... :lol:







7MG has a bore of 83mm, this one will have an 84mm bore...... my flowbench has an 81mm bore....... :roll:


Here... for those who don't understand.... below is a 2 panel...

Image

the right view is the combustion chamber ported out to 83mm, the left view is showing a 4AG gasket centered, overlayed on the 7MG - note how the gasket cuts the corners, how close the gasket is to the outer edges of the valves... now remember the 4AG gasket is 82mm... my bench is another millemeter narrower
:cry:

There is no way my numbers are accurate.... because well over 10% of the valves are buried behind an 81mm flowbench bore

I still have numbers mind you... but I'll show the pretty pictures first..... (you did ask... :lol: )


The combustion chamber retains its original configuration, I've tapered all the valve shrouding to allow for improved cylinder filling.

Image

let me introduce to you exhaust port #5....

Image



and a slightly deeper view......

Image



I promised some numbers....

Intake:
Before cleaning.... .10 - 73.83, .15 - 107.50, .20 - 135.85, .25 - 155.95, .30 - 166.40
After cleaning..... .10 - 75.73, .15 - 111.48, .20 - 141.57, .25 - 163.67, .30 - 176.37
After 3 angle..... .10 - 79.42, .15 - 113.57, .20 - 144.88, .25 - 166.91, .30 - 179.37
After porting..... .10 - 79.32, .15 - 115.20, .20 - 146.32, .25 - 170.10, .30 - 182.74

Exhaust:
Before cleaning... .10 - 64.10, .15 - 95.97, .20 - 113.73, .25 - 124.32, .30 - 129.58
After cleaning..... .10 - 64.00, .15 - 95.20, .20 - 115.30, .25 - 125.80, .30 - 130.80
After 3 angle...... .10 - 64.15, .15 - 95.90, .20 - 114.91, .25 - 126.62, .30 - 132.60
After porting...... .10 - 64.20, .15 - 95.35, .20 - 115.84, .25 - 127.70, .30 - 135.60


Now just 5 more to go....... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:16 pm

from another forum wrote:What is needed to convert to the correct size for this head?

Ian


Sent you a text... in essence... I need a 3" long section of 3.5" OD plastic grey pipe, bored out to an ID of 84mm


Since this is my first 7MG head, and it is going on to a street use 7MGTE... I follow OST rule number 1... do no harm!

oldeskewltoy wrote:I'm going to be working with the casting, keeping some of the shrouding but shaping it better.


Here is #5 chamber

Image

All of the original machining marks that can lead to pre-ignition have been blended into the chamber walls. The bowls and seats have been blended together as well



Here is a different view... here I'm show chamber 5 and chamber 6... (both using the same light source)

Image

Here you get a better idea of the chamber work(note no sharp edges), as well as the work performed in the bowls, as well as the gentle taper all the valve shrouding now has...

Note I've pushed the chamber edges, surrounding the valves, to the very edge of the gasket, remember the client is using an 84mm bore, the gasket above is 83mm, this allows me enough room to taper the valve shrouding to improve cylinder filling

Here is a different view of the chamber work performed.

Image

Both valves are set @ .300" lift, and you can see the exhaust valve shrouding is now about half as much as what it was


More to come...... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:56 pm

Yes... those are 4AG intake valves... I have no spare 7M valves so 4AG intake valves work in a pinch to protect the 7M valve seats... adequate for both intake and exhaust.


Soooo.... up to now I've shown you #5 exhaust port, and the #5 chamber...


now for a little comparison #5 intake short radius.... and #4 before I work its short radius

Image

Note the port floor is still the port floor (horizontal light line in port center), the short radius, as well as the bowls have been blended.

You can see the ports are directional the port on the right leads away to the right, while the port on the left leads away to the left. Also note the far left bowl, the bowl and port wall are intruding inside the valve radius, note the far right port bowl flows smoothly into the port and out. The very sharp of eye will see the radius change on the inside bowl of #5 where it meets the divider, as compared to #4.


Now that I've got the intake side "designed", I proceed on with getting another exhaust in shape... this time #6.

#6 has an "irregularity" in it... the EGR port - hole in far right port.

Image



Here is #5 and #6, the splitter for each is just visible in this view, the only light in this shot is shop light
Image

The edge of the EGR port closest to the of port outlet received a mild radius, The other edge was not radiused. I did what I could... considering there is a big hole in the side of the port. I was able to do quite a bit to the bowl and port.



And a 3 panel.... bowls mostly in shape, port transitions from raw to finished* (some hand finishing remained)

Image

The major work is performed between the top and center panel... large sections of the outer walls are removed to allow for a more gradual transition. Those transitions are blended between the center and bottom panel.


More to come....... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:28 pm

oldskewltoy wrote: The very sharp of eye will see the radius change on the inside bowl of #5 where it meets the divider, as compared to #4.

I found (with help from a few friends on toymods.org.au) a view I could use to demonstrate above mentioned "radius change"
Image




3 down... 3 to go....

Image



This type of photo allows me some interesting comparisons....

2 ports opposite each other in view....
Image

More to come.... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:38 pm

andrew_mx83 wrote:sorry for the delay getting pics, been absolutely flat out!

full port view:
Image




here is my full port view... this is 2 ports... they are similarly directed, but alas... I didn't get a before view of 5 from this angle so I took port 3 as a before

before #3
Image


after #5
Image


You can see the splitter taper, and how it allows for more of the valve to draw on the air fuel mixture. The short radius has a lengthened horizon allowing for more air to follow the short radius to the valve


More to come.... and next time it doesn't look nearly as nice as this post :(
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:22 pm

On my previous post I ended with...

oldeskewltoy wrote:and next time it doesn't look nearly as nice as this post


That is because I've encountered a problem. It appears that this head have pretty serious "port drift". My term, it means the port and bowls are not well aligned. In this case the port floor rises incrementally

Ports 4-6
Image

Ports 1-3
Image

Take a close look at the lines... the 1st line you want to take notice of is the center one, the one showing the valve guides all aligned. Now look at the ports... what do you see? I see the ports "moving" gradually. At first you can't really tell(because I've ported the first 3), unless you look inside the ports. The openings inside in port 5 are not as open as 6, and 4 is not as open as 5.

Looking at the 2nd view, ports 1-3 and you can see that all the ports are moving "up" on the head, the available area to port is mostly on the port floors, with only limited porting room available on the port roofs, or in the case of #1, already at the same port height BEFORE porting......

Image

As you can see in this last photo... the mounting surfaces are aligned (top edge), the guides are aligned... and the port roof has no room for me to work, while the floor is making me "hog out" the floor area to get similar results.

Before I begin hogging anything out... I'll be consulting with a few friends... and get their opinions before I proceed further.

more to come..........
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:08 am

It has been a few days now, progress is slow, but there is progress.

I've now got 5 of 6 ports mostly finished

Image

I've reworked exhaust ports 5 through 3 now trying to match the floors, and providing a smooth short radius to allow maximum flow.


and a bit more detail... the dotted lines are not to context... but the views themselves show the changes that have occurred.
Image



I'm holding off temporarily on #1 because I'm hoping the new flowbench insert will be here in time for me to test how bad #1 actually is. Jesse stopped by yesterday and saw, and felt just how bad #1 actually is. For now I think I'll shift to working 4-2 on the intake side for the next bit so I can delay working #1 until I have the new adapter.


More to come..... :mrgreen:
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:51 pm

from another forum wrote:Dan,

I'm milling your 84mm adaptor currently. I'll try to get it dropped off to you today on my way out of town.

Ian


Image




Here you go...


Image


Thank you Ian....


I tried to fit the adapter into my bench top... it didn't slip in so I did some measurements and the O/D was a bit off - bit too large... the ID was a little off as well - a bit too small. Each case easier for me to adjust.

I brought the adapter over to Jesse's shop and put it on his lathe, set the speed for 240 rpm, and used 400 grit sand paper to take it down some.

Image

I got one end to the correct O/D diameter(black lines near bottom), the other end still needs a little bit to pass. the same is true with the ID - one end is 84.01mm, the other is 83.66mm.

But for purposes of understanding... here are the two adapters...

Image

It doesn't look like much....


Or does it??
ImageImage

note how now you can see the entire chamber(with red adapter) where with the grey one the valves are all shrouded.

So... I've been saving #1 so I can get another port on the bench, I'll finish getting the adapter to size... re-calibrate the bench to the new adapter... and get the head back on the bench so we can see the progression of the #1 ports.

Thank you Ian... and Jesse......


More to come... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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oldeskewltoy
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Re: OST-022: New Numbers.....

Postby oldeskewltoy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:31 pm

Wow... it has been almost 2 weeks....

I worked the OD and ID of the new liners with 220, and finally got the adapter fitted to the bench

Image



After fitment, I went about re-calibrating the bench for the new diameter. Once calibrated, I set up the head on the bench so I could measure #1 intake and exhaust ports.

Image


intake - .10" - 82.1, .15" - 117.9, .20" - 150.71, .25" - 175.76, .30" - 188.82
exhaust - .10" - 63.28, .15" - 94.64, .20" - 110.88, .25" - 119.23, .30" - 124.53

Now the first thing that appears different is the intake side already seems to flow above the other ported intakes... but remember we now have a larger cylinder liner for the flowbench. So, if the cylinder liner is now the correct size... why then is #1 exhaust port so poor.

I decided to refit the head on to #5 cylinder to see what the finished ported numbers actually are....

#5 cylinder now with the correct cylinder liner

intake - .10" - 81.95, .15" - 119.87, .20" - 156.38, .25" - 182.65, .30" - 194.8

So with the revised liner the #5 intake port shows improvement over stock beginning at .015" and although not huge, it does gradually open further from there.

Now it is good to note both #1 and #5 had 3 angle valve job so the pre valve job numbers I can't replicate, but based on the earlier tests with the 82mm adapter they are likely to be be lower then after the 3 angle.

It is also worth noting that the short radius on #1 intake port was the best of the 6. In fact overall seat/bowl/port alignment is rather good on #1 intake.

So there is some improvement on the intake side... lets look at the exhaust.


The same(rather good seat/bowl/port alignment) can NOT be said for number 1 exhaust port, flow numbers are actually lower from the start. That isn't good, for we now have the correct liner. I retest #5 exhaust ports and there is a BIG difference...

#5 exhaust - .10" - 63.70, .15" - 95.44, .020" - 118.28, .25" - 131.4, .30" - 139.20

At .30" lift the ported exhaust port(w 3angle) is now flowing more than 10% higher(nearly 15cfm more air flow) then #1 unported port that has had the same 3angle valve job

Number 1 exhaust ports flows poorer then #5 exhaust port did with the wrong liner. Also... my recent references to the exhaust port placement and the port floor crowding the port might have an influence. The #1 exhaust port @ .30" lift with a 3 angle - 124.53 cfm, while #5 exhaust port before the 3 angle as measured with a smaller liner and it flowed nearly 3.5 cfm more... Now that the bench is correctly sized, we'll see how #1 exhaust port improves.

Oh... 5 of 6 chambers are now done as well

Image


More to come.... :D
OST Cyl head porting, - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=300

Building a great engine takes knowing the end... before you begin :ugeek:

Enjoy Life... its the only one you get!

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